RCIA- Is it absolutely necessary?

[USMC]

Originally Posted by TimOliv

Enrollment in RCIA doesn't make a person Catholic.

A prime example is my mother. She was Greek Orthodox.

She decided to go with the Latin church (since I was enrolled in that church's school at the time) they made her attend RCIA, told her she had to renounce the heretical doctrines of her church (there are no heretical doctrines of her former church), and insisted that her chrismation was not valid and required her to be confirmed.

By Eastern Rite standards, she was already Catholic, already a baptized person who simply wished to "return" to the true path, as it were. To the Latin Rite, she was a Catechumen and had to be received during Easter Vigil.

Not to drift too far of course here, but the Greek Orthodox Church is both schismatic and heretical. They may use the term "Catholic", but are not part of the Catholic Church.

Was your mom part of a special branch of the Greek Orthodox Church that was in union with Rome? The Greek Uniat Church is in union with Rome, but not the Greek Orthodox.

From what you wrote, it sounded like she was Greek Orthodox who desired to be united with Rome. Therefore, she approached a Priest of the Greek Uniat Church, but then decided to join the Latin Rite.

If that is correct, she should have renounced the errors of the Greek Orthodox Church. Subjectively speaking, maybe she wasn't even aware of the errors of the Orthodox Church and as such did not adhere to them; but nevertheless, it seems as though she should have renounced the errors held by the Greek Orthodox Church. If someone told her the Greek Othodox Church was not heretical and schismatics, they were mistaken. It is both.

Newadvent.org: The name Orthodox Church is generally used to distinguish those of the Greek Rite who are not in communion with the Holy See [thus, schismatic]. It is a name common to the official designation of both Churches of the Greek Rite, but the schismatic or dissenting Churches lay great stress upon the word Orthodox, and its implied meaning of correctness of doctrine, while the Uniat Churches lay equal emphasis upon the word Catholic. Hence these divisions of the Greek Church are respectively called the "Greek Orthodox" and the "Greek Catholic" for convenience in designation. The Greek Orthodox Church is now well established in America, and nearly every city of considerable size has one or more churches of the various nationalities belonging to that communion. There is no unity among them nor any obedience to a central authority; they conform to the general usages and discipline of the Byzantine Rite, but look to their respective Holy Synods in their home countries for governing authority and direction.

[USMC]

Originally Posted by jmcrae

That's my fault for using clumsy language. My apologies.

They aren't Catholic yet after the Rite of Acceptance, but they are Catechumens, which gives them the right to have a Catholic funeral, if they die before Baptism.

Thanks for that clarification.

[TimOliv]

Originally Posted by USMC

Not to drift too far of course here, but the Greek Orthodox Church is both schismatic and heretical. They may use the term "Catholic", but are not part of the Catholic Church.

Was your mom part of a special branch of the Greek Orthodox Church that was in union with Rome? The Greek Uniat Church is in union with Rome, but not the Greek Orthodox.

From what you wrote, it sounded like she was Greek Orthodox who desired to be united with Rome. Therefore, she approached a Priest of the Greek Uniat Church, but then decided to join the Latin Rite.

If that is correct, she should have renounced the errors of the Greek Orthodox Church. Subjectively speaking, maybe she wasn't even aware of the errors of the Orthodox Church and as such did not adhere to them; but nevertheless, it seems as though she should have renounced the errors held by the Greek Orthodox Church. If someone told her the Greek Othodox Church was not heretical and schismatics, they were mistaken. It is both.

Schismatic, yes. But there is no heretical DOCTRINE. The Doctrine they subscribe to is the same as any Uniate doctrine. The point is, however, that the Uniate church would have received her through confession and communion while the Latin Rite Church insisted on repeating her Confirmation and incidentally, labeling her a catechumen and sticking her into a class with the unbaptized.

[auppie]

Originally Posted by Verita

I am currently participating in an RCIA program and finding it very difficult. It's not problems with Catholicism. Far from it. I am excited and anxious to join the Church and I'm at the point where I don't think anything could change my mind.

Welcome to RCIA. I went through it last year and found it very rewarding.

Originally Posted by Verita

However, I'm finding RCIA a phenomenal waste of my time and a huge disappointment. There are more RCIA team members than catechumens and none of them seem to really know anything about Catholic teaching. They are all mostl people who have already gone through teh RCIA program and have nothing to offer except their person interpretation of the weekly readings and their own faith experiences.

Have you asked the team members any questions? They sure do have more to offer than their personal interpretations...ya gotta ask! And ask, and ask until you understand. If some of your team members are converts as often members taking and teaching RCIA are, then sometimes their stories can be very helpful by relating to some members of the course.

Originally Posted by Verita

I guess when I first heard about RCIA I thought it was about teaching. I figured since every Catholic is supposed to agree with and believe everything the Church teaches then before you join you need to learn exactly what that is and that would be what RCIA is for.

It isn't teaching like classes in college. Again, ask questions. Are you trying to participate or start any discussions? You won't know everything about what the Church teaches before you become a member of the Catholic Church...that will take tons of time. You will continue to learn for the rest of your life. I know that isn't too helpful, because I know now there is so much out there I don't know, and in this world of instant gratification...it sometimes is a difficult pill to swallow when we don't have everything NOW!

Originally Posted by Verita

I already know a significant ammount of Church teaching but I figured it would be fun to discuss it with other people and stuff. RCIA is turning out to be nothing like that. Little actual teaching has gone on so far.

How our class worked is that each week we would have a topic to discuss. We'd take materials home the previous week to study, then come in the next week and discuss it. Discussion is the key word here... the course is a dialog between the team members and the participants.

Again, you probably do not know as much as you think you do. It will come in time, God's time, not yours. Perhaps you may need to be a little bit more open and a little less critical of the ways these team members teach.

Originally Posted by Verita

The second major problem I'm having is that the little teaching we have received from our Deacon is just.... wrong. I won't go into detail now but I can tell I'll have a full year of correcting his teaching.

If you think he is teaching something wrong, use this opportunity to discuss what your understanding is...this opens up the dicussion that you seem to desire. Maybe you just aren't understanding how the Deacon is describing something. Again...ASK questions!

Originally Posted by Verita

Anyway, my point is, what's the point of this class? I'm learning absolutely nothing except that our Deacon is bordering on heresy and our parish seems to be pretty liberal. The more I go the more distaste I gain for this parish and it's leaders. I know everything I need to know to be a Catholic. I don't need this. Why do I have to go through an entire year of this to become a Catholic? If I were a less determined person I would have already given up and said "If the Church wants to make it so hard for me to join her then why in the world should I?"

Once more, you do not know everything you need to know to become Catholic. It is a life-long study. I'm truly sorry you don't seem to think your parish is up to par. Have you discussed your concerns with the Pastor or Deacon?

One other thing we learn with the full course is patience (a virtue). For me, being finally able to participate in the eucharist was a wonderful experience because I had to wait. When the time came, I was able to fully appreciate how important it truly is.

The Church isn't making it so hard for you to join her; you are. Your view you express here towards your class and your parish are not exactly charitible or forgiving. The class will be what you make of it...you will get out of it what effort you put into it. So, if you don't put much effort into the class and being a participant by asking questions, you, unfortunately, won't get much out of it.

Originally Posted by Verita

Isn't there some way to get around it?

Nope, and I wouldn't have had it any other way. I do wish you luck in your discernment. I'll be praying for you.

God Bless!
Cathy

[Rabbititus]

This thread is interesting to me since I will be starting RCIA soon, but am already Catholic - I merely need to be confirmed as I never finished the last year or two of CCD when I was a teenager.

I wasn't baptised Catholic, though - I was baptised in an Anglican Catholic Church (one of those traditionalist Episcopal churches that broke from the Anglican communion), and the priest who baptised me was formerly a Roman Catholic priest. Other than that, I was raised Roman Catholic - first confession, first communion, CCD - all in a Roman Catholic church.

[USMC]

Originally Posted by TimOliv

Schismatic, yes. But there is no heretical DOCTRINE.

What about Papal Infallibility and the Primacy of the Pope?

Catholic Encyclopedia, newadvent.org: The term Orthodox Greek Church, or even simply the Orthodox Church, designates, without distinction of speech, or race, or nationality, all the existing Churches of the Byzantine Rite, separated from Rome. They claim to be a unit and to have the same body of doctrine, which they say was that of the primitive Church. As a matter of fact, the orthodoxy of these Churches is what we call heterodoxy, since it rejects the Papal Infallibility, and the Papal Supremacy, the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, that of Purgatory, etc. However, by a polite fiction, educated Catholics give them the name of Orthodox which they have usurped. The term Schismatic Greek Church is synonymous with the above; nearly everybody uses it, but it is at times inexpedient to do so, if one would avoid wounding the feelings of those whose conversion is aimed at.

It only takes the rejection of one dogma to make the Church heretical. The Greek Orthodox reject numerous doctrines.

No offence to your mom. She converted. Mine is still a member of the Anglican Church, which is also Schismatic and heretical.... but I am working on her.

[Br. Rich SFO]

Originally Posted by USMC

Does anyone know if the RCIA program was every approved by Rome?

I have a tape of an interview with Malachi Martin from about 10 years ago. At that time, according to him, RCIA had not been approved. He said the course had been sent to Rome for review; Rome acknowledged receiving the program, but never approved it. Does anyone know if Rome ever approved the course?

Yes there is a Vatican document.

[Br. Rich SFO]

Originally Posted by USMC

Are you sure it is approved? I am not saying it has not been, but before I posted I did a seach and could not find any information that would imply it has been approved. I found a few websites that said it was not approved, and nothing official that indicated it has been.

I would actually be surpised if Rome approve a program that tells people they are Catholic before they are baptized, which is what you said RCIA teaches in your earlier post.

That is explicitly contrary to what Pope Pius XII said in Mistici Corpus.

"Only those are really to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith and who have not unhappily withdrawn from Body-unity or for grave faults have been excluded by legitimate authority" (Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi).

While it is true that it is possible for a person to be obtain the state of grace via baptism of desire (and thus to be united to the soul of the Church), simply being enrolled in an RCIA class does not make a person Catholic.

That is one of the reasons I am curious if Rome ever approved of RCIA.

It was approved by the Congregation for Divine Worship in 1972.
Yes it is true that a person AFTER stating in public in the Rite of Acceptance into the Order of Catechumens their desire for Baptism and full union with the Catholic Church. Should that person die suddenly without being able to receive Baptism, they are afforded full Christian burial rites.

[Br. Rich SFO]

Originally Posted by Rabbititus

This thread is interesting to me since I will be starting RCIA soon, but am already Catholic - I merely need to be confirmed as I never finished the last year or two of CCD when I was a teenager.

I wasn't baptised Catholic, though - I was baptised in an Anglican Catholic Church (one of those traditionalist Episcopal churches that broke from the Anglican communion), and the priest who baptised me was formerly a Roman Catholic priest. Other than that, I was raised Roman Catholic - first confession, first communion, CCD - all in a Roman Catholic church.

Then what you need is an Adult Confirmation class, not RCIA!

[Br. Rich SFO]

Originally Posted by TimOliv

Enrollment in RCIA doesn't make a person Catholic.

However, many many many churches, contrary to everything I read on this matter, put people who were already validly baptized into the RCIA class and receive them at the Easter Vigil as though they were catechumens.

A prime example is my mother. She was Greek Orthodox. She spoke to the Uniate priest who said her baptism and chrismation was valid, she just needed confession and could receive communion with them and become a part of the church.

She decided to go with the Latin church (since I was enrolled in that church's school at the time) they made her attend RCIA, told her she had to renounce the heretical doctrines of her church (there are no heretical doctrines of her former church), and insisted that her chrismation was not valid and required her to be confirmed.

By Eastern Rite standards, she was already Catholic, already a baptized person who simply wished to "return" to the true path, as it were. To the Latin Rite, she was a Catechumen and had to be received during Easter Vigil.

You are correct. All that was needed was a profession of Faith from your mother. The Latin Rite pastor would have received her into union with the Eastern Catholic Church of her ethnic background, if an Eastern Church was not available. She could have then simply worshiped as an Eastern Catholic guest at the Latin parish. And yes her original Sacraments would all have been valid.

[G&S]

The RCIA is mandatory. The difficulty is that parishes often see their version of the RCIA as mandatory. For example, a man in our parish who always brought his children to Mass and religious instruction while his Catholic wife stayed at home was told that, since he was a long-distance truck driver, no accomodations could be made for him because he was always gone on Tuesday night and RCIA was mandatory. After years of trying, the whole family was lost to the Church. Quite obscene, really.

[TimOliv]

Originally Posted by G&S

The RCIA is mandatory. The difficulty is that parishes often see their version of the RCIA as mandatory. For example, a man in our parish who always brought his children to Mass and religious instruction while his Catholic wife stayed at home was told that, since he was a long-distance truck driver, no accomodations could be made for him because he was always gone on Tuesday night and RCIA was mandatory. After years of trying, the whole family was lost to the Church. Quite obscene, really.

RCIA is mandatory for catechumens, not for people who are already baptized.

[G&S]

Originally Posted by G&S

The RCIA is mandatory. The difficulty is that parishes often see their version of the RCIA as mandatory. For example, a man in our parish who always brought his children to Mass and religious instruction while his Catholic wife stayed at home was told that, since he was a long-distance truck driver, no accomodations could be made for him because he was always gone on Tuesday night and RCIA was mandatory. After years of trying, the whole family was lost to the Church. Quite obscene, really.

[Podo2005]

Originally Posted by Verita

I am currently participating in an RCIA program and finding it very difficult. It's not problems with Catholicism. Far from it. I am excited and anxious to join the Church and I'm at the point where I don't think anything could change my mind.

However, I'm finding RCIA a phenomenal waste of my time and a huge disappointment. There are more RCIA team members than catechumens and none of them seem to really know anything about Catholic teaching. They are all mostl people who have already gone through teh RCIA program and have nothing to offer except their person interpretation of the weekly readings and their own faith experiences.

I guess when I first heard about RCIA I thought it was about teaching. I figured since every Catholic is supposed to agree with and believe everything the Church teaches then before you join you need to learn exactly what that is and that would be what RCIA is for. I already know a significant ammount of Church teaching but I figured it would be fun to discuss it with other people and stuff. RCIA is turning out to be nothing like that. Little actual teaching has gone on so far.

The second major problem I'm having is that the little teaching we have received from our Deacon is just.... wrong. I won't go into detail now but I can tell I'll have a full year of correcting his teaching.

Anyway, my point is, what's the point of this class? I'm learning absolutely nothing except that our Deacon is bordering on heresy and our parish seems to be pretty liberal. The more I go the more distaste I gain for this parish and it's leaders. I know everything I need to know to be a Catholic. I don't need this. Why do I have to go through an entire year of this to become a Catholic? If I were a less determined person I would have already given up and said "If the Church wants to make it so hard for me to join her then why in the world should I?"

Isn't there some way to get around it?

Umm in the RCIA there is supposed to sharing of the readings and Faith sharing between the two of you and that is how you grow in your faith to be able to be initiated into the catholic church. ( especially since Christ's word is more important at the moment then learning about the church teachings which u can read about later on) And BTW Church Teaching is obviously based on the teachings of Christ so it wont hurt to read and reflect upon that ( I know its hard for us catholics to do but with help from the holy spirit we will triumph )


God Bless

Podo

[Chris-WA]

Originally Posted by Verita

However, I'm finding RCIA a phenomenal waste of my time and a huge disappointment. There are more RCIA team members than catechumens and none of them seem to really know anything about Catholic teaching. They are all mostl people who have already gone through teh RCIA program and have nothing to offer except their person interpretation of the weekly readings and their own faith experiences.

I guess when I first heard about RCIA I thought it was about teaching. I figured since every Catholic is supposed to agree with and believe everything the Church teaches then before you join you need to learn exactly what that is and that would be what RCIA is for. I already know a significant ammount of Church teaching but I figured it would be fun to discuss it with other people and stuff. RCIA is turning out to be nothing like that. Little actual teaching has gone on so far.

The second major problem I'm having is that the little teaching we have received from our Deacon is just.... wrong. I won't go into detail now but I can tell I'll have a full year of correcting his teaching.

Anyway, my point is, what's the point of this class? I'm learning absolutely nothing except that our Deacon is bordering on heresy and our parish seems to be pretty liberal. The more I go the more distaste I gain for this parish and it's leaders. I know everything I need to know to be a Catholic. I don't need this. Why do I have to go through an entire year of this to become a Catholic? If I were a less determined person I would have already given up and said "If the Church wants to make it so hard for me to join her then why in the world should I?"

Isn't there some way to get around it?

Let me be the first Catholic to apologize for what sounds like a really lousy RCIA program you are suffering through. As a Catholic this embarrasses me, especially because your experience is all too common. Many parishes are plagued with poor catechesis, especially for adults. And worse yet, many parishes are plagued by a liberal mentality when it comes to church teachings. You will find some instructors teaching outright nonsense either due to a lack of proper understanding or a veiled disdane for the teaching authority of the Magisterium on certain issues. Sometimes these instructors base things on their own personal interpretation or on some whacky thelogian's writings who happens to openly disagree with official church teaching.

If you are experiencing this, I highly recommend never attending another RCIA class at that parish and finding a parish with a program that teaches authentic Catholicism as taught by the Magisterium. Here is a hint--if your RCIA instructor does not regularly use the Catechism of the Catholic Church as a reference source for your class, steer clear because there is something wrong going on there. If you find your RCIA instructors teaching falsehood on a routine basis, I would have a meeting with the pastor just to let him know what's going on. He may or may not fix it, but at least you have done your part to try to correct that kind of nonsense.

Again I am truly sorry you have to experience this. It is sad but there is hope. There are many other parishes with good programs out there. Hopefully there is one not too far from where you live. Ask around and you should be able to find a better one.