When did Mary fully believe in Jesus?

Daniel Marsh · #1 Sep 20, '06, 11:23 am

I am thinking that Mary did not fully understand, realise that Jesus is the Messiah until after the ressurrection. When do you think Mary fully believed in Jesus as the Christ, Messiah?

homewardbound · #2 Sep 20, '06, 11:25 am

She had to have known it and believed it when she was pregnant with Jesus. If not, then why did her cousin Elizabeth state she(Mary) was the Mother of our Lord? If not then did she fully realize it I think she HAD to have during the finding in the temple when, at twelve years old, Jesus was preaching to the priests.

I think she definitely knew long before the ressurection.

Kuriakos · #3 Sep 20, '06, 11:28 am

I don't think she really understood until he began his ministry. I'm sure she had suspicions and perhaps thought he would be something lesser, like a prophet, but I highly doubt she was certain til later in his life.

Fidelis · #4 Sep 20, '06, 12:54 pm

Quote:

And the angel said to her in reply, "The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. (Luke 1:35)

Gabriel described to Mary an amazing sequence of events -- akin to the Shekinah glory cloud coming down upon the Ark of the Covenant in the OT, which was the sign of God's presence with his people. I think Mary knew that her child would be more that a prophet; that he would be the actual Son of God.

Quote:

And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled." (Luke 1:43-45)

Elizabeth's words to Mary make clear that both the one who spoke to Mary (through the angel) and the babe in her womb are somehow both Lord -- the God and Savior of Israel. Perhaps she did not have a Thomistic understanding of the Trinity, but she knew her baby was not just a man, even a great one.

In light of this, listen to Our Lady's Magnificat:

Quote:

And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid: for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty hath done great things to me: and holy is his name. And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him. He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart. He hath put down the mighty from their seat and hath exalted the humble. He hath filled the hungry with good things: and the rich he hath sent empty away. He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy. As he spoke to our fathers: to Abraham and to his seed for ever. (Luke 1:46-55, DRV)

"Mary did you know?"

I think yes!

Daniel Marsh · #5 Sep 20, '06, 2:00 pm

Hi homewardbound, the phrase, "mother of my Lord" in the gospel is not referring to Mary as "Mother of my God", it in context is simply referring to lord as meaning "master" nothing more. The error of taking lord here to mean God comes from misunderstanding the meaning of Jewish names-titles. My name is Daniel which means simply "God is judge" that does not make me God, the judge of mankind.

We know for example, that when Jesus was left behind in the temple that his parents did not understand Jesus' mission on earth.

Luke 2
40And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

41Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.

42And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.

43And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.

44But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.

45And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.

46And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.

47And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.

48And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

49And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

50And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

51And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.

52And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

In Luke 2, verse 49 Jesus tells his parents that he was doing his Father's business. verse 50 tells us that his parents did NOT understand the meaning of Jesus' words. But, in verse 50 Mary hid Jesus' saying in her heart to ponder their meaning which tells me that Mary at this time did not fully understand the meaning and signifance of his words.

If you do not know about Mohammads' violent and immoral life, get a copy of this muslim book and read for yourself.

Twenty Three Years: A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad by Ali Dashti (Author), F. R. C. Bagley (Translator)

Daniel Marsh · #6 Sep 20, '06, 2:41 pm

[quote=Fidelis;...I think yes!

[/QUOTE]

You my brother are reading into the text what is not there. The Gospels themselves were not written until about 30-50 years after the events thus the Gospels are hind sight and interpretative of the events at a much later time.

Even with that 'interpretive mode', Luke 2:50 "they understood not the saying which he spake unto them." His parents which includes Mary had no clue what his Father's business was.

Mary was human, not God and as such she would not know the full impact of what Jesus said and did until Jesus mission on earth was completed from hindsight-- after Jesus opened the scriptures to the apostles.

In Fact, Mary, the mother of Jesus was not even noted in the ressurrection passages, it was not even until Acts 1:14 "They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers." where we get any hint that Mary believed that Jesus would raise from the dead as the Messiah -- which is hindsight.

All the wedding in Cana demonstrates is that Jesus had a mission on earth to do. It does not demonstrate that others including Mary understood that mission. If Mary understood that mission as the Messiah, she would not have gone along with her family to bring him home and stop his mission.

Mark 3

Jesus' Mother and Brothers

31Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you."

33"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked.

34Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! 35Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

Fidelis · #7 Sep 20, '06, 4:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Marsh

You my brother are reading into the text what is not there. The Gospels themselves were not written until about 30-50 years after the events thus the Gospels are hind sight and interpretative of the events at a much later time.

Even with that 'interpretive mode', ...

Daniel, Daniel, Daniel. You did not address anything that I wrote. You simply dismissed it with a irrelevant point that, BTW, mitigates against ANY use of Scripture (including your own).

Instead, you go into the tired anti-Catholic clap-trap which tries to down-play Mary's significance. It is clear this is why you started this whole thread -- a very childish and deceptive tactic of the type that turned me off from "Bible Christians" and straight back into the Catholic Church. I wanted no part of people that had to resort to such tactics.

Next time be honest and, if you can't ask a sincere question, at least say what you mean up front. To paraphrase Gollum, "I like my anti-Catholicism raw and wriggling!"

HailMary · #8 Sep 20, '06, 5:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Marsh

Hi homewardbound, the phrase, "mother of my Lord" in the gospel is not referring to Mary as "Mother of my God", it in context is simply referring to lord as meaning "master" nothing more.

Can you give me one example in Scripture where the word, "lord" is used in the way your definition claims it to have been used when St. Elizabeth spoke those words?

Mommyof02green · #9 Sep 20, '06, 5:25 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Marsh

the phrase, "mother of my Lord" in the gospel is not referring to Mary as "Mother of my God", it in context is simply referring to lord as meaning "master" nothing more.

Yes, I would like to see in scripture where the word "lord" is used to simply mean master! Surely you have MORE examples to use other then the passage where Elizabeth, calls the child (Jesus) in Mary's womb "My Lord".

Please, give more examples from Scripture where the "lord" means simply "master" and NOTHING more.

Thank-you,
and God Bless.

Mommyof02green

**LilyM** · #10 Sep 20, '06, 5:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mommyof02green

Yes, I would like to see in scripture where the word "lord" is used to simply mean master! Surely you have MORE examples to use other then the passage where Elizabeth, calls the child (Jesus) in Mary's womb "My Lord".

Please, give more examples from Scripture where the "lord" means simply "master" and NOTHING more.

Thank-you,
and God Bless.

Mommyof02green

Surely Mary could know that Jesus was indeed the Son of God, as she was told by Gabriel, without knowing the details of what his future life and tasks would be. Thus she could be confused at his words in the Temple without necessarily not believing in him. After all, the same happened with the Apostles.

tdandh26 · #11 Sep 20, '06, 5:46 pm

This is the most proposterous question I have ever heard! Have you ever read the fathers Dan? Have you read the passage where Gabriel visits Mary? Did you know that Jews had a profound understanding of the scriptures, and Mary was no exception.

The very fact that she was conceiving as a virgin points to a passage she would have known well concerning the messiah. Gabriel himself calls Jesus the Son of the Most High. He tells her about how Jesus will save his people. Do you think that she would not have heard that the messiah was to be a light of revelation to the gentiles?

Do you really think even if all this passed over the head of the most blessed and grace filled human being ever created by God, that Jesus would not have informed her completely?

What was the point of Gabriel asking Mary for her consent to such an enormous task if she was ignorant of all that was to happen to the messiah. Not only did she say yes to giving birth to Christ but also to the immense suffering that she would have to suffer as she watched her Lord and son be tortured and killed in a most horrible fashion. She said yes to God in taking part in plan of salvation.

Without Mary, Daniel you would have no chance of salvation. Without her "be it done unto me according to thy will" we would still be under the penalty of one womans sin. But as it is, One Most Blessed Woman has participated in Gods plan freely and helped to set us free.

She alone was created without sin and therefore she alone could have given birth to God the Son.

Now leave my Mother alone and rather than blast her every chance you guys get, why not offer thanks to God by thanking Him for such a wonderful gift as Mary Mother of the Lord Jesus Christ, and Mother of the Church.

tdandh26 · #12 Sep 20, '06, 5:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilyM

Surely Mary could know that Jesus was indeed the Son of God, as she was told by Gabriel, without knowing the details of what his future life and tasks would be. Thus she could be confused at his words in the Temple without necessarily not believing in him. After all, the same happened with the Apostles.

Hey lily,
I have always thought that the reason Mary kept this scene in her heart is that she alone could fully realize the immense paradox that was occuring right before the eyes of the Jews.

That is, that He who dwelt in the Holy of Holies,( that place which they could only enter once a year) was seated in the midst of them. The Creator of all was asking His creatures questions. All this while they had no idea who He was.

**LilyM** · #13 Sep 20, '06, 6:10 pm

I think I see what you're getting at - she (they) may have been confused as to WHY it was happening, and perhaps HOW it was happening, and yet still clear about WHAT was happening

Gottle of Geer · #14 Sep 20, '06, 6:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Marsh

I am thinking that Mary did not fully understand, realise that Jesus is the Messiah until after the ressurrection. When do you think Mary fully believed in Jesus as the Christ, Messiah?

## She certainly didn't understand Him during all of His ministry.

What is not clear is at what point - if at any one in particular - she passed from giving ready OT obedience to the Will of God - as in Luke 1 & John 2 - to a specifically "Christian" way of thinking. This is a bit like asking "Was Jesus a Christian ?"

I doubt one can really draw any hard-and-fast boundaries here: I think she grew gradually, as most of us do. But that is only a guess. Her interior life is in some ways even more hidden than that of her Son; I think that the Baptist's words - "I must decrease, but He must increase" - go double for her; she is nearer the Sun, so we see less of her than of John or Jesus

I suspect you are right. ##

But for Grace · #15 Sep 20, '06, 6:58 pm

not to interject, but let's go back to what Gabriel said to Mary, "Hail Mary, Full of Grace" So exactly how full is full?

How full makes an angel of God address her as being full of grace? is it a fullness consisting of all the graces, a few to an extrodinary degree? if this is the case, why call her "full of grace" is a glass of water full if it has several drinks of water in it? of course not, but to use the same metaphore, Mary, like the cup, was overflowing. She is full of grace exactly as the angel of God proclaimed, exactly as the scriptures declare. Is it any small wonder that this fullness should include the gift of faith? or shall we forget that faith is a gift of the Spirit, a grace given to us by God. Mary knew and believed before she obediently submitted to God saying behold the handmaiden of the Lord.