Is Catholicism hellenized?

[mlcampbell]

In light of all the recent controversy over Pope Benedict's speech at the University of Regensburg, I decided today to go ahead and read the full thing myself, instead of relying on distorted media reports and the poor relating of the issue on "the street". Personlly, I found the speech brilliant. However, needless to say, I'm not here to start another thread about all of the hullabaloo going on; rather, I have a specific theological question concerning one of the passages within the Holy Father's speech. He's talking about three attempts at dehellenizing Catholic theology throughout history:

"The thesis that the critically purified Greek heritage forms an integral part of Christian faith has been countered by the call for a dehellenization of Christianity-– a call which has more and more dominated theological discussions since the beginning of the modern age. Viewed more closely, three stages can be observed in the program of dehellenization: although interconnected, they are clearly distinct from one another in their motivations and objectives.

Dehellenization first emerges in connection with the fundamental postulates of the Reformation in the 16th century. Looking at the tradition of scholastic theology, the Reformers thought they were confronted with a faith system totally conditioned by philosophy, that is to say an articulation of the faith based on an alien system of thought. As a result, faith no longer appeared as a living historical Word but as one element of an overarching philosophical system. The principle of sola scriptura, on the other hand, sought faith in its pure, primordial form, as originally found in the biblical Word. Metaphysics appeared as a premise derived from another source, from which faith had to be liberated in order to become once more fully itself. When Kant stated that he needed to set thinking aside in order to make room for faith, he carried this program forward with a radicalism that the Reformers could never have foreseen. He thus anchored faith exclusively in practical reason, denying it access to reality as a whole."

While I was reading the speech, I wanted Pope Benedict to deal more directly with this form of criticism against the Church. Obviously, he didn't have time to do all that and instead moved on to a broader and more important discussion about the relation between reason and faith. So I guess what I want to do here is pick up the discussion where he left off and approach this whole issue of hellenization more directly and specifically. So how much has the Church been effected by Greek thought? Has hellenistic philosophy literally inserted beliefs into Catholic doctrine, or is it merely that the Church, in the past, has employed Greek philosophical language to express ideas that are fundamentally Christian? Is the Church totally conditioned by a philosophy foreign to original Biblical faith? How would one go about convincing, say, a protestant that his/her arguments that the Church has been hellenized are ill-founded?

Thanks for your help!

[Reformed Rob]

I would say that the Church has been greatly aided by an infusion of Greek thought into our theology.

Ratzinger, in another work (Principles of Catholic Theology) discusses how the Early Church Fathers used Platonic philosophy to set forth and defend their Trinitarian beliefs against those who denied things related to the Trinity.

Also, there are certain aspects of Greek thought that are helpful to us. That truth is accessible to man, that's very helpful. Many people thousands of years ago before Christ didn't like that idea, and they don't like it now either! Or they think that it is accessible only through like technological progress.


About Greek thought "taking over".... perhaps it is good to review and see in what has influenced our thinking, and do an audit on it occassionally. I believe that is a good thing, an opportunity for cleansing excess that may need to be cleansed away.

[mlcampbell]

Originally Posted by Reformed Rob

I would say that the Church has been greatly aided by an infusion of Greek thought into our theology.

Ratzinger, in another work (Principles of Catholic Theology) discusses how the Early Church Fathers used Platonic philosophy to set forth and defend their Trinitarian beliefs against those who denied things related to the Trinity.

Also, there are certain aspects of Greek thought that are helpful to us. That truth is accessible to man, that's very helpful. Many people thousands of years ago before Christ didn't like that idea, and they don't like it now either! Or they think that it is accessible only through like technological progress.


About Greek thought "taking over".... perhaps it is good to review and see in what has influenced our thinking, and do an audit on it occassionally. I believe that is a good thing, an opportunity for cleansing excess that may need to be cleansed away.

But then a critic of the Church would then ask, what is unique and new about Christianity? How is Catholicism legitimate from a theological point of view if it has borrowed beliefs from pagan systems?

[Todd Easton]

I don't know much about Greek philosophy so excuse me, if I error, but...

Didn't St. John open his gospel with the term Logos that was borrowed from Greek philosophy?

In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word was with God and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

Seems to me that Greek philosophy was "baptized" or "Christianized" by the Apostles themselves.

[Daniel Marsh]

Was not the Jewish culture of Jesus' day hellenized?

Hellenistic Commentary to the New Testament Edited by M. Eugene Boring, Klaus Berger, and Carsten Colpe ISBN: 0687009162 Abingdon

The New Testament is filled with Hellenistic ideas, just read this above commentary.

[Genesis315]

Originally Posted by mlcampbell

But then a critic of the Church would then ask, what is unique and new about Christianity? How is Catholicism legitimate from a theological point of view if it has borrowed beliefs from pagan systems?

No, good thinking is good thinking. We don't borrow pagan doctrines, but rational thought by good thinkers. This good thinking is applied to Catholic doctrine which was new at the time: the radical doctrine of the Incarnation, forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ and grace through faith and charity, union with Him in the Eucharist, the Trinity, the Communion of Saints, rising from our fallen nature through Him to attain true peace, etc., etc.

[Saint_Michael]

Of course the Church has Greek influence, the Greeks housed the most brilliant thinkers of the time. To say that the Christian Church has some things in common with Greek philosophical thought therefore it's been helenized and is corrupted is wrong. To claim that you have to assume that the Greeks had no ability to discern fundemental truths about God, i.e. God is infinite, God is omnipotent etc..

[vern humphrey]

Originally Posted by mlcampbell

But then a critic of the Church would then ask, what is unique and new about Christianity? How is Catholicism legitimate from a theological point of view if it has borrowed beliefs from pagan systems?

We didn't "borrowed beliefs from pagan systems." We didn't adopt polytheism, animal sacrifice, ritual prostitution, mystery cults, and so on.

We used the methods of discourse and logic common amongst the Greeks, and applied them to the questions of the day. That's entirely different from borrowing their beliefs.

[batteddy]

I'd say that the Greeks were very insightful, and largely correct, about many philosophical things and so we happened to pick up on that. They were right and logical, and so we read their writings.

Faith is different than philosophy. One is reality, the other is a model of reality, a framework of thought.

But as the Pope said...we can't cut off faith from the rest of reality. It can't be this stand-alone thing. It should be a part (the defining part, however) of an overarching, broader philosophy or worldview. Especially since that philosophy can then inform and help articulate the faith.

[puzzleannie]

as I understand the Pope's remarks he is referring to the specific claim by the Protestant Reformers that scholastic theology (Thomas Aquinas et al) of the late middle ages had derived its philosophical basis and methods of argument and exposition from Aristotle and Greek philosophy, and that it was therefore tainted and represented accretions and divergence from apostolic teaching.

[Krebsbach]

I once listened to a Scott Hahn talk that he gave to FOCUS missionaries in which he recommended a book called Fact, Value and God by Arthur Holmes. This is a very good little book on the history of ideas which addresses the Pope's concern and a lot more.

Note that before Tom Aquino Christianized Aristotle, Augustine Christianized Plato. Greek culture influenced the Church throughout, not just during the Middle Ages.

kordially

karl

[Truthstalker]

To carry the charge of hellenization to absurdity, we would have saints who carried on like the old Greek gods. We would have wild orgies to "contact the divine mystery", mystery cults and the official endorsement of hideous practices. The Church has consistently rejected pagan influences - read what the ECF had to say about pagan theology. They strained the soup, spitting out the foul things but accepting the good. Paul cannot be said to be totally hellenized, as he had been trained by Gamaliel etc, in the temple: a Pharisee of Pharisees. If he had been coopted by Greek thought, then there is no such thing as non-Greek thought. Yet we find him quoting pagan philosophers. The charge of hellinization must antedate Paul, then. To say John was corrupted by Greek thought with the employment of the "Logos" concept demonstrates there is no departure from an earlier conceptualization of Christianity in a wholly Jewish context. You might as well make the same charge of Jesus. He apparently was too Greek for some then.

[JoeMomma]

Originally Posted by mlcampbell

Is the Church totally conditioned by a philosophy foreign to original Biblical faith? How would one go about convincing, say, a protestant that his/her arguments that the Church has been hellenized are ill-founded?

A good start would be to note that such philosophy isn't "foreign to original Biblical faith. When Paul talks about seeing through a glass darkly but later face to face, he is quoting from Plato's Phaedo.

[Damascus]

I called up a friend named Hellen and she thinks not at all. She did not get any say in any of it and frankly shes not happy she was not included.
Maybe that is why she is not a Catholic.

[spauline]

hey, guys, while we're at it, even though I'm hijacking the thread a little bit, nobody responded to my thread on my speculation ( )

that the Church's influence by Greece is in the Scriptures, the apoc!

See this: on the Four Wings of Greece (Daniel 7) and the Two Wings of the Woman (Revelation 12).

Blessings!
scott

ps, you don't have to read the whole thread, just the beginning stuff about Greece and the Church!