Catholic Church soft on salvation?

[mikeledes]

In recent decades, the Catholic Church has made efforts to foster dialogue and cooperation between the worlds different faiths. Hence you have the Pope expressing "respect" for other religious traditions and even praising them, such as Islam. The Church teaches that if you are incincibly ignorant, you have a posssibility to be saved. But all of the definitions of this "ignorance" water it down to the point that practically any "good" non-Catholic has the possibility of being saved. Are we bowing to political correctness? Why do we seem to be afraid to call other religions what they are, false.? Have we watered down the necessity of Christ and faith in Him for our salvation?

Thanks and God Bless

[Fidelis]

Originally Posted by mikeledes

In recent decades, the Catholic Church has made efforts to foster dialogue and cooperation between the worlds different faiths. Hence you have the Pope expressing "respect" for other religious traditions and even praising them, such as Islam. The Church teaches that if you are incincibly ignorant, you have a posssibility to be saved. But all of the definitions of this "ignorance" water it down to the point that practically any "good" non-Catholic has the possibility of being saved. Are we bowing to political correctness? Why do we seem to be afraid to call other religions what they are, false.? Have we watered down the necessity of Christ and faith in Him for our salvation?

Thanks and God Bless

This seems to be the basis for your concern. Perhaps you can give us some helpful examples of official Church pronouncements in this area?

[mikeledes]

For example, if you give someone a pamplet about Christ and they read it and reject it, that does not automatically mean they are disqualified from salvation because they may not have been properly introduced to Christ. At least that's what I heard. how about all this praise that Islam has been receiving from the Pope, particularly in the aftermath of his controversial comments. I

God Bless and Thanks

[Fidelis]

Originally Posted by mikeledes

For example, if you give someone a pamplet about Christ and they read it and reject it, that does not automatically mean they are disqualified from salvation because they may not have been properly introduced to Christ. At least that's what I heard.

I asked for specific official statements, not anecdotal or hypothetical examples.

In any case, I would agree with the hypothetical given above. Giving someone a pamphlet is not giving him incontrovertible evidence. Each person is different, and besides, only God can judge whether that person has enough evidence or not.

...how about all this praise that Islam has been receiving from the Pope, particularly in the aftermath of his controversial comments.

Acknowledging that another religion has some good about it, is not the same as pronouncing you don't need Christ.

[Della]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

[Rolltide]

There is a common misconception that this is a recent development in the Catholic Church, but the issue goes back a long, long time. The real debate over the argument starts with Christopher Columbus in 1492. After Columbus's death when people realized that they had, in fact, discovered two entirely new continents, it created a crisis of faith within the Catholic Church. How could millions of Native Americans have been created for the sole purpose of being doomed to hell? Clearly they had never heard the Word of God before. Did they have any chance for salvation? The answer was yes, and the current teaching simply reaffirms that decision.

[Sandtigress]

Its awfully presumptive of us to tell God who He's doing to send to Hell, don't you think? All the Church is saying is that she doesn't know - we don't know how our merciful God is going to judge someone who has never been given the chance to know Him, at least in the way that we know Him. If this person who has never even heard of the name of Jesus still follows the Lord's voice that he might hear in the depths of his heart, who are we to say that he is condemned to Hell? All we can say is that others might have a chance - a smaller chance that those who know Christ in a greater way, perhaps, but a chance nonetheless.

[itsjustdave1988]

Originally Posted by mikeledes

...practically any "good" non-Catholic has the possibility of being saved.

Understood in its proper context, this is true. Any sinner has the possibility of being saved. Do you suppose there is anyone God can't save? Yet all sinners are saved by Jesus Christ by their conversion.

It is important to understand this teaching in its proper context. For instance, Vatican II affirmed, in the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium (Light of Nations):

Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) ... Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) (Lumen Gentium, 16)

[Footnotes:]
(18) Cfr. S. Thomas, Summa Theol. III, q. 8, a. 3, ad 1.
(19) Cfr. Epist. S.S.C.S. Officii ad Archiep. Boston.: Denz. 3869-72.

The fathers of Vatican II purposefully placed footnotes 18 & 19 within Lumen Gentium so this teaching would be understood in its authentic sense as intended by the council. What is that intended sense?

With regard to the non-Catholic religions which are "related in various ways to the people of God," does this mean they are all therefore saved by their own non-Catholic religion? Certainly not. Observe…

Footnote 18 from the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas states,

“Those who are unbaptized, though not actually in the Church, are in the Church potentially. And this potentiality is rooted in two things--first and principally, in the power of Christ, which is sufficient for the salvation of the whole human race; secondly, in free-will.” (Summa Theologica, III, 8, 3)

Does this teaching therefore mean that all sincere people are saved, whatever their faith or lack of it? Such an interpretation of Catholic doctrine is untenable, given the context of St. Thomas’ teaching regarding what “in the Church potentially” means.

St. Thomas, in the same article of the Summa explains:

We must therefore consider the members of the mystical body not only as they are in act, but as they are in potentiality. Nevertheless, some are in potentiality who will never be reduced to act, and some are reduced at some time to act…Christ is the Head of all men, but diversely. For, first and principally, He is the Head of such as are united to Him by glory; secondly, of those who are actually united to Him by charity; thirdly, of those who are actually united to Him by faith; fourthly, of those who are united to Him merely in potentiality, which is not yet reduced to act, yet will be reduced to act according to Divine predestination; fifthly, of those who are united to Him in potentiality, which will never be reduced to act; such are those men existing in the world, who are not predestined, who, however, on their departure from this world, wholly cease to be members of Christ
(ibid.)

This is what Vatican II meant by the relation of non-Christians to the Church, some being only related potentially, which will never be reduced to act, and thus not attain to eternal life.

continued...

[itsjustdave1988]

continued...

Moreover, Lumen Gentium 16, footnote 19 emphasized the authentic doctrine of the Church regarding how one may be joined to the Church by “implicit desire.” It is the Letter of the Holy See to the Archbishop of Boston refuting Feeneyism, a letter which was approved and promulgated by Pope Pius XII. It stated explicitly:

God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God….But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith: "For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him" (Heb. 11:6). The Council of Trent declares (Session VI, chap. 8): "Faith is the beginning of man's salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and attain to the fellowship of His children" (Denzinger, n. 801).”

Consequently, the authentic doctrine of the Catholic Church insists that those are saved and attain eternal life must necessarily be joined to the visible Catholic Church, or desire to be joined to her, even if implicity. They must also have been given the gift of supernatural faith in Jesus Christ, animated by the Divine gift of perfect charity.

[itsjustdave1988]

Originally Posted by Rolltide

...The real debate over the argument starts with Christopher Columbus in 1492. ...

Errrrrrrrr.....no. Dionysius, St. Thomas Aquinas, and others addressed this very question waaaaaaay before 1492.

Dionysius taught that gentiles obtained the revelation from angels (Coel. Hier. ix). St. Thomas Aquinas similary affirmed, "If a man born among barbarian nations, does what he can, God Himself will show him what is necessary for salvation, either by inspiration or sending a teacher to him." (Sent. 11, 28, Q. 1, A. 4, ad 4).

St. Thomas Aquinas furthermore affirmed...

If, however, some were saved without receiving any revelation [of the mystery of Christ], they were not saved without faith in a Mediator, for, though they did not believe in Him [Christ] explicitly, they did, nevertheless, have implicit faith [in Christ] through believing in Divine providence, since they believed that God would deliver mankind in whatever way was pleasing to Him, and according to the revelation of the Spirit to those who knew the truth (Summa Theologica, IIb, 2, 7)

[Genesis315]

This is from the Catechism of Pius X (1911):

29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?

A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation

Also, from Doctor of the Church, St. Alphonsus Liguori:

St. Alphonsus Liguori (1691-1787) Moral Theology - (Bk. 6): "But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called 'of wind' ['flaminis'] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind ['flamen']. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon 'Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato' and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'"</U>

[Genesis315]

From current teaching (Dominus Iesus, 2000):


However, from what has been stated above about the mediation of Jesus Christ and the “unique and special relationship”84 which the Church has with the kingdom of God among men — which in substance is the universal kingdom of Christ the Saviour — it is clear that it would be contrary to the faith to consider the Church as one way of salvation alongside those constituted by the other religions, seen as complementary to the Church or substantially equivalent to her, even if these are said to be converging with the Church toward the eschatological kingdom of God.

Certainly, the various religious traditions contain and offer religious elements which come from God,85 and which are part of what “the Spirit brings about in human hearts and in the history of peoples, in cultures, and religions”.86 Indeed, some prayers and rituals of the other religions may assume a role of preparation for the Gospel, in that they are occasions or pedagogical helps in which the human heart is prompted to be open to the action of God.87 One cannot attribute to these, however, a divine origin or an ex opere operato salvific efficacy, which is proper to the Christian sacraments.88 Furthermore, it cannot be overlooked that other rituals, insofar as they depend on superstitions or other errors (cf. 1 Cor 10:20-21), constitute an obstacle to salvation.89

22. With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God has willed that the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity (cf. Acts 17:30-31).90 This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which the Church has for the religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism “characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another'”.91 If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation.92 However, “all the children of the Church should nevertheless remember that their exalted condition results, not from their own merits, but from the grace of Christ. If they fail to respond in thought, word, and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be saved, but they shall be more severely judged”.93 One understands then that, following the Lord's command (cf. Mt 28:19-20) and as a requirement of her love for all people, the Church “proclaims and is in duty bound to proclaim without fail, Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life (Jn 14:6). In him, in whom God reconciled all things to himself (cf. 2 Cor 5:18-19), men find the fullness of their religious life”.94

[Genesis315]

In inter-religious dialogue as well, the mission ad gentes “today as always retains its full force and necessity”.95 “Indeed, God ‘desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth' (1 Tim 2:4); that is, God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth. Those who obey the promptings of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation. But the Church, to whom this truth has been entrusted, must go out to meet their desire, so as to bring them the truth. Because she believes in God's universal plan of salvation, the Church must be missionary”.96 Inter-religious dialogue, therefore, as part of her evangelizing mission, is just one of the actions of the Church in her mission ad gentes.97 Equality, which is a presupposition of inter-religious dialogue, refers to the equal personal dignity of the parties in dialogue, not to doctrinal content, nor even less to the position of Jesus Christ — who is God himself made man — in relation to the founders of the other religions. Indeed, the Church, guided by charity and respect for freedom,98 must be primarily committed to proclaiming to all people the truth definitively revealed by the Lord, and to announcing the necessity of conversion to Jesus Christ and of adherence to the Church through Baptism and the other sacraments, in order to participate fully in communion with God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Thus, the certainty of the universal salvific will of God does not diminish, but rather increases the duty and urgency of the proclamation of salvation and of conversion to the Lord Jesus Christ.

[StIsaacJogues]

Jesus could not stop talking about his Father, his Abba, his Papa, and our Father, our Abba, our Papa. Practically speaking, Jesus spoke about almost nothing and no one else but his beloved Heavenly Father. Here are just a few of the quotations of Him doing so:


John 12:28
Father, glorify your name!"
John 16:25

"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

Matthew 6:9
"This, then, is how you should pray: " 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,

Matthew 10:32
"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

Matthew 11:26
Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

Matthew 11:27
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Matthew 12:50
For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."


Matthew 15:13
He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.

Matthew 16:17
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

Matthew 18:10 "See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

Matthew 18:14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.

Matthew 18:19
"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

Matthew 18:35
"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

Matthew 20:23
Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father."

Matthew 23:9
And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Matthew 25:34
"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

Matthew 26:39
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

Matthew 26:42
He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."

Matthew 26:53
Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

Luke 6:36
Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

Luke 12:30
For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them.

Luke 12:32
"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.

Luke 22:29
And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me,

Luke 23:34
Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

Luke 24:49
I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 3:35
The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.

John 4:21
Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

John 5:17
Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working."

John 5:18
For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

John 5:20
For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these.

John 5:21
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

John 5:22
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,

John 5:23
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

John 5:26
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

John 5:36
"I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

John 5:45
"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.

John 6:27
Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

John 6:32
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

John 6:57
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

John 6:65
He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

John 8:16
But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.

John 8:18
I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

John 8:27
They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father.

John 8:54
Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

John 10:15
just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

John 10:30
I and the Father are one."

John 10:37
Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 14:7
If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

John 14:8
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

John 14:9
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

John 14:10
Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

John 14:12
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

John 14:13
And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.
John 14:16

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—

John 14:20
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

John 14:28
"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 15:1
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.

John 15:9
"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.

John 15:23
He who hates me hates my Father as well.

John 16:15
All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

John 16:17
Some of his disciples said to one another, "What does he mean by saying, 'In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me,' and 'Because I am going to the Father'?"

John 16:23
In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

John 17:2
"Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.