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  #1  
Old Oct 20, '06, 11:15 am
TOP TOP is offline
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Default War in Heaven

When did the war in heaven take place, as in Rev. Ch. 12? It seems like it happened right after Christ's victory on the cross. Tim
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  #2  
Old Oct 20, '06, 11:40 am
heisenburg heisenburg is offline
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Default Re: War in Heaven

My understanding... and this could be wrong so take it with a grain of salt... is that the war in heaven took place very soon after god created the Angels.

Explaination I have ehard goes something like this,

1) god creates the universe, and all the angels
2) God reveals to them (in heir own beatific vision) his over all plan for man, the universe, and such
3) Since the angels are able to process these things much better and faster than man, almost immediatly, there were angels that couldnt fathom man being above them, especially if they are to be the sinful creatures they are, so the angels that ouldnt understand revolted...

Everyhitn happened though very quickly...

sort of like this...

6:00:00 PM God creates the angels
6:00:01 PM God shares his plan
6:00:02 PM Angels Process the vision
6:00:03 PM Angels Revolt
6:00:04 PM Angels thrown in hell

Again... My understanding could be completely wrong... and correct me if it is.. just how i understand it.

In Christ
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  #3  
Old Oct 20, '06, 12:16 pm
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Default Re: War in Heaven

The reason I ask is that in Job ch1:6- One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, satan also came among them.7 And the Lord said to satan, "Whence do you come?" Then satan answered the Lord and said "from roaming the earth and patrolling it". Then after the war between satan and Micheal and their angels it says in Rev. ch12:10- Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have salvation and power come, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Anointed. For the accuser of our brothers is cast out, who accuses them before God day and night.11 They conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; love for life did not deter them from death.12 Therefore, rejoice, you heavens, and you who dwell in them. But woe to you, earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great fury, for he knows he has but a short time." NAB. Any thoughts? Tim
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  #4  
Old Oct 20, '06, 5:42 pm
copland copland is offline
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Default Re: War in Heaven

St. Caesarius of Arles believes that Satan was thrown out after the creation of the physical world, which would indicate that Satan was thrown out a long time ago. St. Victorinus understands this to happen in the future at the coming of the Antichrist. St. Bede and Primasius have a different take upon it. Here is a quote from St. Bede on this passage.

Quote:
heaven
Quote:
. The heaven signifies the Church, in which he says that Michael, with his angels, fights against the devil, for that, according to the will of God, he contends for the Church in her sojourning, by praying and ministering help; of whom Daniel (Dan. xii. 1) also said, that he would come to the aid of the Church in the last and most grievous affliction; from which they suppose that Antichrist is to be slain by him. And they are said to be his angels in the same way that our angels also are. For the Lord says, "Their angels do always behold the face of My Father,(St. Matt. xviii. 10)" the angels, that is, of those whose citizens they are. fought. The angels of Satan are not those alone who are like him in nature and will, but men who are entangled in their snares are also to be understood.[The Venerable Bede Commentary on Revelation]


I guess in this passage that we can have a futurist, preterist, historist, and an allegorical meaning.
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  #5  
Old Oct 20, '06, 6:29 pm
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Default Re: War in Heaven

Thanks for your response,
I have always thought that this war occured just after creation. But for some reason I now feel this war happened as a result of satans jealousy of Jesus. Maybe this transends time and did happen at creation, the birth and death of Christ and His victory by resurrection. Kind of like earth time compressed compared to eternity. Just a thought, Tim
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  #6  
Old Oct 20, '06, 8:27 pm
copland copland is offline
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Default Re: War in Heaven

St. Thomas Aquinas' catena on Luke has St. Cyril saying this about Satan and his fall happening when Jesus came.
Quote:
CYRIL; Or else, I saw Satan as lightning fall from heaven, that is, from the highest power to the lowest impotence. For before the coming of our Savior, he had subdued the world to him, and was worshipped by all men. But when the only-begotten Word of God came down from heaven, he fell as lightning, seeing that he is trodden under foot by those who worship Christ. As it follows,
I really don't agree with St. Victorinus about the war happening in the future at the end, because St. Jude in his epistle says that the angels that rebelled are kept in chains in Tartarus until the final Judgment.

St. Augustine brings an interesting thought.

Quote:
AUG. The demons seeing souls go from hades to heaven, knew that the prince of this world was judged and, being brought to trial in the Savior's cause, had lost all right to what he held. This was seen on our Savior's ascension, but was declared plainly and openly in the descent of the Holy Ghost on the disciples.
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  #7  
Old Oct 20, '06, 8:40 pm
kleary kleary is offline
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Default Re: War in Heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOP View Post
Thanks for your response,
I have always thought that this war occured just after creation. But for some reason I now feel this war happened as a result of satans jealousy of Jesus. Maybe this transends time and did happen at creation, the birth and death of Christ and His victory by resurrection. Kind of like earth time compressed compared to eternity. Just a thought, Tim
Exactly... I read somewhere that Satan fell when he saw God becoming Man and dying on the cross for mankind... that is when he tempted Eve and how he fell.

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  #8  
Old Oct 22, '06, 4:33 pm
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spauline spauline is offline
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Default Re: War in Heaven

just my two cents,

any text of Scripture, especially in the apoc, can be multialayered, that is, have many fulfillments. I believe I heard some Catholic apologist expert say that in regards to apoc lit, there can be an IMMEDIATE fulfillement, an INTERMEDIATE fulfillment, and a LONG-RANGE fulfillment. For example, the fourth beast of Daniel 7 could be, all at the same time:

I. The Seleucid Greek Dynasty and Antiochus IV (which persecuted Jews in IMMEDIATE context)

II. The Roman Empire (which persecuted Christians in an INTERMEDIATE context), and...

III. The Kingdom of Antichrist at very end of world (which will persecute the Church then in the most horrible way in a FAR REACHING fulfillment)

Similarly, there can be a sense in which the war in heaven initially symbolizes the fall of the angels that occurred in eterntiy prior to the creation of this world, and it can represent the war that the devil waged on Christians by way of Rome in the immediate aftermath of Christ's ascension, a war which was lost since Catholicism conquered pagan Rome and reduced the devil's spiritual supremacy over mankind that reigned in the world until Christianity conquered paganism. And I surmise there may be other meanings of later times.

Here's a quote from an essay of mine:

Quote:

In the beginnning of Rev. 12, prior to the birth of Christ, the dragon is in Heaven, symbolizing that he still holds the most significant reign over mankind, as the vast majority of the nations (i.e., basically everybody but the Jews) are in the spiritual darkness of paganism and sin.

After the child is born and ascends to heaven, a "great war" breaks out, meaning, now the devil is fighting to prevent the conversion of the world (or, at least in this case, the Roman Empire). But he loses because, as in Rev. 12, the martyrs "overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and they loved not their lives unto death." Look at the victory speech in Rev 12 and compare it to the parallel passages in Daniel 2 and 7, which likewise deal with (on one level) the Church's victory over pagan Rome. "...for now has come the salvation, and the power and the Kingdom of our God, for the accuser of our brethren has been cast out...."(rev 12) "... that the kingdom and the power and the dominion of our God should be given to the saints..." (Daniel (I'm paraphrasing, see end of Dan 2 and Dan 7)).

So the dragon has lost, that is, he was unable to prevent the conversion of the world, so he is now thrown to "earth", that is, the Magisterium, which he now assaults (with attacks on its doctrinal development, much like the Illuminative phase of the saint in Catholic spirituality ) .
I can send you link for more if you like!

blessings!
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  #9  
Old Oct 22, '06, 4:38 pm
HailMary HailMary is offline
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Default Re: War in Heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by heisenburg View Post
My understanding... and this could be wrong so take it with a grain of salt... is that the war in heaven took place very soon after god created the Angels.

Explaination I have ehard goes something like this,

1) god creates the universe, and all the angels
2) God reveals to them (in heir own beatific vision) his over all plan for man, the universe, and such
3) Since the angels are able to process these things much better and faster than man, almost immediatly, there were angels that couldnt fathom man being above them, especially if they are to be the sinful creatures they are, so the angels that ouldnt understand revolted...

Everyhitn happened though very quickly...

sort of like this...

6:00:00 PM God creates the angels
6:00:01 PM God shares his plan
6:00:02 PM Angels Process the vision
6:00:03 PM Angels Revolt
6:00:04 PM Angels thrown in hell

Again... My understanding could be completely wrong... and correct me if it is.. just how i understand it.

In Christ
Yeah, that is a pretty accurate explanation.
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  #10  
Old Oct 22, '06, 8:08 pm
Fidelis Fidelis is offline
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Default Re: War in Heaven

It may helpful to keep in mind that the Book of Revelation is apocalyptic literature, a specialized form of prophecy. As such, it does not, and is not meant to, follow a strict linear timelime such as a history book, or even conventional forms of prophecy. Thus, some things that are described as happening in heaven are happening at the same time other things are described are happening on earth.

Revelation 12 is probably the best example of this. The battle between Satan and Michael sounds like it is happening at the same time as the Incarnation, but could have happened (and probably did) at the dawn of history. The two episodes may be juxtaposed to show how closely connected they are.
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  #11  
Old Oct 26, '06, 9:06 am
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franksv franksv is offline
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Default Re: War in Heaven

Would'nt the war/fall of some Angels have to happened before satan helped convince Eve and then Adam to eat from the tree of knowledge?
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  #12  
Old Oct 26, '06, 10:42 am
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spauline spauline is offline
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Default Re: War in Heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by franksv View Post
Would'nt the war/fall of some Angels have to happened before satan helped convince Eve and then Adam to eat from the tree of knowledge?

I would think so, yes. It seems implied in the catechism that the fall of the angels was at least prior to the fall of man. but, again, it's mulitilayered. even though I don't like all his beliefs, Fidelis has a point in that the book is multilayerd and multidimensional. We don't always take it as a strict chronology.
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  #13  
Old Oct 26, '06, 2:43 pm
Fidelis Fidelis is offline
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Default Re: War in Heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by spauline View Post
I would think so, yes. It seems implied in the catechism that the fall of the angels was at least prior to the fall of man. but, again, it's mulitilayered. even though I don't like all his beliefs, Fidelis has a point in that the book is multilayerd and multidimensional. We don't always take it as a strict chronology.
Hey! What's wrong with the rest of my beliefs!
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  #14  
Old Oct 26, '06, 5:16 pm
Liberian Liberian is offline
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Default Re: War in Heaven

Tim,

Given that Heaven operates on an eternal scale which is outside of our space and time, I don't know that the question "when did the war in heaven take place" makes much sense. There really isn't a good earthly sequence of events related to it such that we can say "it happened before this event" and "it happened after that event."

- Liberian
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  #15  
Old Oct 26, '06, 11:50 pm
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Default Re: War in Heaven

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Originally Posted by Fidelis View Post
Hey! What's wrong with the rest of my beliefs!

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be mean, but I recall that you are one of the guys here who likes to trump preterism above all other layers of meaning. That's what I hate! I'm not denying preterism as one viable layer of meaning. But the ultimate apoc meanings and mysteries cannot be solved MERELY by preterism. Ultimately, we must go beyond preterism and apply that level, amongst others, to ENTIRETY of Church history, so as to discern God's Plan for the whole of Salvation History, including the WHOLE Church age, and not merely just the beginning of Church history (preterism) or its very end (futurism).

Also, if I recall correctly, you don't like my historicist interpretation above, which I don't know why? Is it that you don't believe that the current apostasy will be healed and that this is already the beginning of the great apostasy? Or is ithat you reduce teh apoc to a mere idealism, and the issue of the Church recognizing when the great apostasy comes will not be known until Christ returns? Or is it something else?
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