"And also with you" Gesture

Shellie · #1 Oct 20, '06, 7:47 pm

I have a question about a gesture during Mass. Some people around me lift their hands toward the Priest when they say: "And also with you," after the "Peace be to you." Is this correct?

And the "profound bow" during the Nicene Creed? Our priest so slightly bows, that if I hadn't been looking for it I would have missed it, and I don't see anyone else modeling it. In my family I'm the only one doing an almost to the waist bow.

It's a little difficult being a baby Catholic. You're not sure who to follow!

After reading here, I see that our congregation needn't hold hands during the Our Father and then lift those held hands even higher during the ending. But our church does.

Dr. Bombay · #2 Oct 20, '06, 7:52 pm

Just avoid all hand gestures except the Sign of the Cross. And that forehead, lippy, heart thing at the Gospel. If you just skip all the rest, you'll feel better about yourself and not risk making your pew neighbors giggle at you.

CatholicNick · #3 Oct 20, '06, 7:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shellie

I have a question about a gesture during Mass. Some people around me lift their hands toward the Priest when they say: "And also with you," after the "Peace be to you." Is this correct?

And the "profound bow" during the Nicene Creed? Our priest so slightly bows, that if I hadn't been looking for it I would have missed it, and I don't see anyone else modeling it. In my family I'm the only one doing an almost to the waist bow.

It's a little difficult being a baby Catholic. You're not sure who to follow!

After reading here, I see that our congregation needn't hold hands during the Our Father and then lift those held hands even higher during the ending. But our church does.

I do almost to the waist Bows at the Novus Ordo, usually the only person doing it. Its propper to do so.

In the Old Rite Mass, we have to kneel at the words "Et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto, ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est"

netmilsmom · #4 Oct 20, '06, 9:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shellie

I have a question about a gesture during Mass. Some people around me lift their hands toward the Priest when they say: "And also with you," after the "Peace be to you." Is this correct?

LOL!
The "lift up your heart" free throw!

Makes me giggle every time!!

(now I just close my eyes at other parishes, lest I break into hysterics)

SORROWS · #5 Oct 20, '06, 9:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Bombay

Just avoid all hand gestures except the Sign of the Cross. And that forehead, lippy, heart thing at the Gospel. If you just skip all the rest, you'll feel better about yourself and not risk making your pew neighbors giggle at you.

I disagree with you. I have grown up lifting my hand up whenever it is to return the gesture to the altar. It seems to be more of a "modern" thing to just stand there and just say the words.

Giggles? Ridiculous. Feel better about yourself? Are you at Mass for Christ Our Lord or at school worried about what your friends will think?

**LilyM** · #6 Oct 20, '06, 11:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Bombay

Just avoid all hand gestures except the Sign of the Cross. And that forehead, lippy, heart thing at the Gospel. If you just skip all the rest, you'll feel better about yourself and not risk making your pew neighbors giggle at you.

Shaking one or two people's hands at the Sign of Peace in the NO is also fine - as long as it doesn't go into five minutes of indiscriminate-free-for-all mode

I've seen the gesture the OP talks about a few times, never felt tempted to copy it myself. Nor the orans, nor the handholding at the Our Father.

CatholicNick · #7 Oct 21, '06, 12:20 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilyM

Shaking one or two people's hands at the Sign of Peace in the NO is also fine - as long as it doesn't go into five minutes of indiscriminate-free-for-all mode

Ah, yes.. The old ladies and more liberal bunch getting out of thier pews and shaking hands with almost everyone in the church. Good times

Luckily I dont see that much anymore

Michael C · #8 Oct 21, '06, 12:27 am

I lift my hand towards the priest when I reply "...and also with you" and I also bow during the creed. The missal clearly says we should bow.

Tietjen · #9 Oct 21, '06, 12:40 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SORROWS

I disagree with you. I have grown up lifting my hand up whenever it is to return the gesture to the altar. It seems to be more of a "modern" thing to just stand there and just say the words.

Giggles? Ridiculous. Feel better about yourself? Are you at Mass for Christ Our Lord or at school worried about what your friends will think?

Sorrows, it would seem that perhaps you are rather young then. I am a cradle Catholic of 40+ years and growing up this was NOT the norm. I suppose that I could have grown up in uniformed parishes, however. Same goes for the holding hands during the Our Father. It didn't exist in my youth. I do know that some protestant churches like that kind of thing. Perhaps, some converts who were once members of these churches introduced these things. I know that in my case today, in order to avoid the hand holding stuff, I simply bow my head and clasp my hands as in prayer. That way I know that no one can grab a hold of them. Needless to say, I don't participate in the "peace be with you... and also with you" gesture.

Elzee · #10 Oct 21, '06, 6:39 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by netmilsmom

LOL!
The "lift up your heart" free throw!

Makes me giggle every time!!

(now I just close my eyes at other parishes, lest I break into hysterics)

Ahhh - never realized how intricate this was before. You're right - the 'lift up your heart'' free throw is slightly, but distinctly, different than the 'and also with you' back atcha. In our parish, we also have those who have started throwing in a double head nod in concert with their hands during the 'back atcha'.

demerzel85 · #11 Oct 21, '06, 7:36 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shellie

I have a question about a gesture during Mass. Some people around me lift their hands toward the Priest when they say: "And also with you," after the "Peace be to you." Is this correct?

At the "Et cum spirituo" ("And also with you" or more literally "And with your spirit") personsally I would open up my palms and slightly move my hands outward.

At the "Habemus ad Dominum" ("We lift the up to the Lord" or more literally "We have lifted them up to the Lord") from the former position and raise them up slightly.

Usually some charismatics tend to go way too far in this. Prayer with palms open is valid, but there are limits.

Quote:

And the "profound bow" during the Nicene Creed? Our priest so slightly bows, that if I hadn't been looking for it I would have missed it, and I don't see anyone else modeling it. In my family I'm the only one doing an almost to the waist bow.

The "bow" would be when the Holy Name of Jesus is said. It originated from the Carmelites, so at the instances where it occurs, the Carmelites would bow profoundly.

CatholicNick · #12 Oct 21, '06, 7:55 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by demerzel85

The "bow" would be when the Holy Name of Jesus is said. It originated from the Carmelites, so at the instances where it occurs, the Carmelites would bow profoundly.

In the recital of the Nicene Creed - the profound bow, or the kneeling down is a sign of reverence to the incarnation of Our Lord, at the words:

"Et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto, ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est"

But yes - we always bow slightly when the Holy Name of Our Lord is uttered, and priests take off their birettas.

OutinChgoburbs · #13 Oct 21, '06, 8:02 am

The bow (head bow) during the Creed is an ancient gesture of respect for the Incarnation, and is mentioned in GIRM. I believe in the Eastern Liturgies, it is met with a profound bow.

The marking of the forehead, lips and heart before the Gospel is read is very old-school Latin, but is not mentioned as far as I know. My great-grandparents were doing it, and I've examined missals that have it as far back as the early 19th century. It may be older. It didn't fall "out of favor" as did striking one's breast during the Act of Penitence and the Consecration- another older gesture. To my mind, it's also a very appropriate gesture, and GIRM, as is the marking of three before the Gospel.

I first encountered the "free throw" response in a little parish in Texas. I had to check myself to keep from laughing. The congregation responded to every one of Father's "The Lord Be With Yous" with this gesture, and people were bumping into each other to do it. I have yet to find a parish in California or Illinois where this is done. It's not GIRM, it's not ancient, and I personally place it in the category of Stuff I Will Not Do, such as holding hands or raising them in orans posture during the Our Father. As it is not popular around here, I don't think our diocese director of liturgy will mention it any time soon, as he did the former.

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/girm/bul3.shtml
http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/mass/orans.shtml
http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/girm/index.shtml

Shellie · #14 Oct 21, '06, 8:27 am

I appreciate the kind replies. It doesn't sound perfectly cut and dry, but I lean to no hand-holding or other gestures, and not so that I feel better about myself. But as a young one in Catholicism, I don't want to lean on me. I've done that for quite a number of years.

The missalette does indeed read "bow." It reads "All bow during next two lines," or something incredibly similiar. Our family still uses the Missal to know when and what to respond.

When I posted about the "And also with you," gesture, I didn't even think about the "We lift them up to the Lord." Thanks for mentioning thoughts on that too.

Thank you for the links, OutinChgoBurbs. I had read them before, but still desired to ask as it's hard to go against what it appears a large number of your parish are doing (i.e. holding hands). I particularly like this paragraph:

Quote:

The Church sees in these common postures and gestures both a symbol of the unity of those who have come together to worship and a means of fostering that unity. We are not free to change these postures to suit our own individual piety, for the Church makes it clear that our unity of posture and gesture is an expression of our participation in the one Body formed by the baptized with Christ, our head. When we stand, kneel, sit, bow and sign ourselves in common action, we given unambiguous witness that we are indeed the Body of Christ, united in heart, mind and spirit.

ETA: Actually it's not hard to "go against what everyone else is doing," if what we're doing is confirmed to be actually proper.

netmilsmom · #15 Oct 21, '06, 10:50 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elzee

Ahhh - never realized how intricate this was before. You're right - the 'lift up your heart'' free throw is slightly, but distinctly, different than the 'and also with you' back atcha. In our parish, we also have those who have started throwing in a double head nod in concert with their hands during the 'back atcha'.

And some people can make it through the entire "Mass for Mimes" without a single giggle, God Love them!!!!