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  #1  
Old Nov 6, '06, 6:31 pm
foolishmortal foolishmortal is offline
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Default I don't agree with EWTN on not left or right, but heretic

I think Catholics can be believers in what needs to be believed, but they can emphasize certain areas more than others. Some can cut corners where they can. Also, dissent is allowed in some areas. I think it may be getting away with what you can without being a heretic with some Catholics.

For example, the last Pope said that we can go to non-Catholic services. Ok. Technically, we can. The problem is, some may encourage it. Well, the other problem is that many Catholics don't know their Faith. That makes them bait in more evangelical churches--esp. Catholic hating ones. I think it should be included that one should go only with certain precautions under under certain circumstances.

The other is that non-Catholics can go to heaven. That could be possible. It's very likely the girl at Columbine who died praying and willing to die for jesus is saved. There are blood and fire and what not as mitigating circumstances that we can't know come into play until death. However, there are very difficult circumstances. Many churches allow for divorces--something the Bible says doesn't exist. They are allowing so many things that the Bible prohibits in more "moderate" churches. If the Bible is your source of info. You are responsible for what it says. If you have your pastor interpret it for you, why not join the Catholics or Orthodox? Jesus talks about Hell and says those who say "Jesus Jesus" don't necessarily make it in to heaven. It says if you don't feed the hungry, visit the imprisoned, and/or etc., you'll be separated from the sheep. Unfortunately, once saved, always saved is heralded above those passages and it's not even in the Bible. They aren't the only ones. Catholics know that we are not saved for good for just believing in Jesus as our Savior and Redeemer.

The main problem with all this is that Catholics no longer feel the need to evangelize the world; we are said to just encourage Jews to be good Jews and Protestants to be good Protestants--just encourage Protestants and Jews to join us. It's said that we have the fullness of the truth--as if joining the Church is merely a matter of choosing steak over hamburger. They are in great danger maybe not merely for being non-Catholic, but because they are following prophets who speak false things about the Torah/Bible when they know very well the Bible says differently beyond any tricky interpretation skills. Other groups are fine with violating natural law such as pagans.
It's not good to let Catholics in on all these mitigating circumstances and alternate possibilities.

I believe it's a big part of why we are not going door to door or even overseas as (well-taught in the Faith--they'd better be) lay people.

I do admire Babtists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons for fearing others may be in for it for not joining or for being Catholic. They are a threat to Catholics and their teachings are false in very serious areas, but they have the zeal and concern for souls that would be lost for believing wrong things that we have lost due to mispresented teachings by or not corrected by the Vatican 2 crowd for all to know.

For this matter, maybe "Extra ecclesia non salus (no salvation outside the Church" should be brought back into style and leave the mitigating circumstances to priests. Certain "Catholics" not given the indult to do their Masses and sacraments requiring jurisdiction for their bishops should listen up.
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  #2  
Old Nov 7, '06, 12:53 am
Eileen T Eileen T is offline
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Default Re: I don't agree with EWTN on not left or right, but heretic

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolishmortal View Post
I think Catholics can be believers in what needs to be believed, but they can emphasize certain areas more than others. Some can cut corners where they can. Also, dissent is allowed in some areas. I think it may be getting away with what you can without being a heretic with some Catholics.
I believe that Catholics will be judged harsher than those who don't have the Full Truth.
Quote:
For example, the last Pope said that we can go to non-Catholic services. Ok. Technically, we can. The problem is, some may encourage it. Well, the other problem is that many Catholics don't know their Faith. That makes them bait in more evangelical churches--esp. Catholic hating ones. I think it should be included that one should go only with certain precautions under under certain circumstances.
We can only go to Protestant services if it does not cause scandal to others.
Quote:
The other is that non-Catholics can go to heaven. That could be possible. It's very likely the girl at Columbine who died praying and willing to die for jesus is saved. There are blood and fire and what not as mitigating circumstances that we can't know come into play until death. However, there are very difficult circumstances.
If they never had a reasonable exposure to the Truth of Catholic Teaching, I would expect that God would make allowances for that. I know that I would, and I'm not God.
Quote:
Many churches allow for divorces--something the Bible says doesn't exist.
Not the Catholic Church
Quote:
They are allowing so many things that the Bible prohibits in more "moderate" churches. If the Bible is your source of info. You are responsible for what it says.
Are you infallible?
Quote:
If you have your pastor interpret it for you,
Is he infallible?
Quote:
why not join the Catholics or Orthodox? Jesus talks about Hell and says those who say "Jesus Jesus" don't necessarily make it in to heaven. It says if you don't feed the hungry, visit the imprisoned, and/or etc., you'll be separated from the sheep. Unfortunately, once saved, always saved is heralded above those passages and it's not even in the Bible. They aren't the only ones. Catholics know that we are not saved for good for just believing in Jesus as our Savior and Redeemer.
We work out our salvation, like the Apostle Paul, in trembling and in fear.
Quote:
The main problem with all this is that Catholics no longer feel the need to evangelize the world; we are said to just encourage Jews to be good Jews and Protestants to be good Protestants--just encourage Protestants and Jews to join us. It's said that we have the fullness of the truth--as if joining the Church is merely a matter of choosing steak over hamburger. They are in great danger maybe not merely for being non-Catholic, but because they are following prophets who speak false things about the Torah/Bible when they know very well the Bible says differently beyond any tricky interpretation skills. Other groups are fine with violating natural law such as pagans.
It's not good to let Catholics in on all these mitigating circumstances and alternate possibilities.
Okay, I believe that everyone needs the Eucharist, which is the food for eternal life. I want everyone I know and love to participate in that food, the Heavenly Banquet. I want that, and pray for that, for all those I know who are separated from the Fullness of God's Truth.

I believe it's a big part of why we are not going door to door or even overseas as (well-taught in the Faith--they'd better be) lay people.

I do admire Babtists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons for fearing others may be in for it for not joining or for being Catholic. They are a threat to Catholics and their teachings are false in very serious areas, but they have the zeal and concern for souls that would be lost for believing wrong things that we have lost due to mispresented teachings by or not corrected by the Vatican 2 crowd for all to know.

For this matter, maybe "Extra ecclesia non salus (no salvation outside the Church" should be brought back into style and leave the mitigating circumstances to priests. Certain "Catholics" not given the indult to do their Masses and sacraments requiring jurisdiction for their bishops should listen up.[/quote]
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  #3  
Old Nov 7, '06, 8:30 pm
CRW CRW is offline
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Default Re: I don't agree with EWTN on not left or right, but heretic

Quote:
Originally Posted by foolishmortal View Post
I think Catholics can be believers in what needs to be believed, but they can emphasize certain areas more than others. Some can cut corners where they can. Also, dissent is allowed in some areas. I think it may be getting away with what you can without being a heretic with some Catholics.

For example, the last Pope said that we can go to non-Catholic services. Ok. Technically, we can. The problem is, some may encourage it. Well, the other problem is that many Catholics don't know their Faith. That makes them bait in more evangelical churches--esp. Catholic hating ones. I think it should be included that one should go only with certain precautions under under certain circumstances.

The other is that non-Catholics can go to heaven. That could be possible. It's very likely the girl at Columbine who died praying and willing to die for jesus is saved. There are blood and fire and what not as mitigating circumstances that we can't know come into play until death. However, there are very difficult circumstances. Many churches allow for divorces--something the Bible says doesn't exist. They are allowing so many things that the Bible prohibits in more "moderate" churches. If the Bible is your source of info. You are responsible for what it says. If you have your pastor interpret it for you, why not join the Catholics or Orthodox? Jesus talks about Hell and says those who say "Jesus Jesus" don't necessarily make it in to heaven. It says if you don't feed the hungry, visit the imprisoned, and/or etc., you'll be separated from the sheep. Unfortunately, once saved, always saved is heralded above those passages and it's not even in the Bible. They aren't the only ones. Catholics know that we are not saved for good for just believing in Jesus as our Savior and Redeemer.

The main problem with all this is that Catholics no longer feel the need to evangelize the world; we are said to just encourage Jews to be good Jews and Protestants to be good Protestants--just encourage Protestants and Jews to join us. It's said that we have the fullness of the truth--as if joining the Church is merely a matter of choosing steak over hamburger. They are in great danger maybe not merely for being non-Catholic, but because they are following prophets who speak false things about the Torah/Bible when they know very well the Bible says differently beyond any tricky interpretation skills. Other groups are fine with violating natural law such as pagans.
It's not good to let Catholics in on all these mitigating circumstances and alternate possibilities.

I believe it's a big part of why we are not going door to door or even overseas as (well-taught in the Faith--they'd better be) lay people.

I do admire Babtists, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons for fearing others may be in for it for not joining or for being Catholic. They are a threat to Catholics and their teachings are false in very serious areas, but they have the zeal and concern for souls that would be lost for believing wrong things that we have lost due to mispresented teachings by or not corrected by the Vatican 2 crowd for all to know.

For this matter, maybe "Extra ecclesia non salus (no salvation outside the Church" should be brought back into style and leave the mitigating circumstances to priests. Certain "Catholics" not given the indult to do their Masses and sacraments requiring jurisdiction for their bishops should listen up.
May I ask what this has to do with EWTN? I read your post several times and could not find a reference or quote concerning a different position from EWTN. I ask this because I think EWTN is the light of the church. I love their Masses, priests, nuns, and programs. I loved watching the Sunday Benediction, Divine Mercy Chaplet, Mother Angelica, Journey Home, World Over, Sunday Night Live with Fr. Groeschel and Fr. Corapi and the CCC.
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  #4  
Old Nov 7, '06, 10:15 pm
havemercy havemercy is offline
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Default Re: I don't agree with EWTN on not left or right, but heretic

What the heck do people have against EWTN?

You just can't please some people.
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  #5  
Old Nov 8, '06, 8:57 pm
foolishmortal foolishmortal is offline
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Default Re: I don't agree with EWTN on not left or right, but heretic

Originally Posted by foolishmortal
I think Catholics can be believers in what needs to be believed, but they can emphasize certain areas more than others. Some can cut corners where they can. Also, dissent is allowed in some areas. I think it may be getting away with what you can without being a heretic with some Catholics.

I believe that Catholics will be judged harsher than those who don't have the Full Truth.

I believe all will be punished or rewarded according to what they accepted from the Holy Spirit by caring enough about the truth and what they did about it as well as how much time we spent on ourselves and on others in doing what we did with what we learned. But yes, we Catholics have been given the most. Nevertheless, some never learned much of anything from home or the parish. Some learned hard-core dissent even. Some come to the Faith, but by weak RCIA teaching.

The Flathead Indians' receiving info. from God on the "Black Robes" (Jesuits) being the ones to listen to was made possible by God's grace, but their responding in such a way that they had a moral theology very close to ours. Other tribes took to the Faith as well, but these ones were the first. It's hard to hear if your church allows for contraception and divorce.



Quote:
For example, the last Pope said that we can go to non-Catholic services. Ok. Technically, we can. The problem is, some may encourage it. Well, the other problem is that many Catholics don't know their Faith. That makes them bait in more evangelical churches--esp. Catholic hating ones. I think it should be included that one should go only with certain precautions under under certain circumstances.

We can only go to Protestant services if it does not cause scandal to others.
I never heard that till some years ago.


Quote:
The other is that non-Catholics can go to heaven. That could be possible. It's very likely the girl at Columbine who died praying and willing to die for jesus is saved. There are blood and fire and what not as mitigating circumstances that we can't know come into play until death. However, there are very difficult circumstances.

If they never had a reasonable exposure to the Truth of Catholic Teaching, I would expect that God would make allowances for that. I know that I would, and I'm not God.

If you are open to truth, you'll receive it. If you believe in what the Bible says, you cannot divorce or contracept. I don't know where these EWTN find all these Protestants that out us to shame by their Biblical knowledge, but I've worked with quite a few and they admit not knowing all that much. If this were a triumphalistic period in Catholic history, I could understand the humbling of us to our deficits, but I think we could use more building up other than that we have the fulness of the Faith. The apologies to other Faiths was not that great either WHEN the last Pope did it. We got hit by the priest scandals and a lot of Catholics are confused and severely put out. I think a lot of Catholics voted Democrat thinking the war was worse than abortion and such. I think the current Pope needs to reign in a feel-good era. That's my opinion.



Quote:
Many churches allow for divorces--something the Bible says doesn't exist.

Not the Catholic Church

That was my point.

Quote:
They are allowing so many things that the Bible prohibits in more "moderate" churches. If the Bible is your source of info. You are responsible for what it says.

Are you infallible?

If you criticize another's Christian Faith based on the Bible, I think you are responsible for what it really says. I know I'll be accountable for stupid stuff I've said. Some holy people can't be saints for things like that--and that's a penalty by earthly judges (though when one is declared a saint, he/she is a saint). I probably shouldn't be coming here, but I do come for knowledge also (not that it's right)

Quote:
If you have your pastor interpret it for you,

Is he infallible?
If all are to read the Bible for themselves and come to all this knowledge via the Holy Spirit, why have any sermon at a non-Catholic Christian church or why ask him/her for advice on Scripture? That was my point.

Quote:
why not join the Catholics or Orthodox? Jesus talks about Hell and says those who say "Jesus Jesus" don't necessarily make it in to heaven. It says if you don't feed the hungry, visit the imprisoned, and/or etc., you'll be separated from the sheep. Unfortunately, once saved, always saved is heralded above those passages and it's not even in the Bible. They aren't the only ones. Catholics know that we are not saved for good for just believing in Jesus as our Savior and Redeemer.
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  #6  
Old Nov 8, '06, 8:59 pm
foolishmortal foolishmortal is offline
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Default Re: I don't agree with EWTN on not left or right, but heretic

We work out our salvation, like the Apostle Paul, in trembling and in fear.
Quote:
The main problem with all this is that Catholics no longer feel the need to evangelize the world; we are said to just encourage Jews to be good Jews and Protestants to be good Protestants--just encourage Protestants and Jews to join us. It's said that we have the fullness of the truth--as if joining the Church is merely a matter of choosing steak over hamburger. They are in great danger maybe not merely for being non-Catholic, but because they are following prophets who speak false things about the Torah/Bible when they know very well the Bible says differently beyond any tricky interpretation skills. Other groups are fine with violating natural law such as pagans.
It's not good to let Catholics in on all these mitigating circumstances and alternate possibilities.

Okay, I believe that everyone needs the Eucharist, which is the food for eternal life. I want everyone I know and love to participate in that food, the Heavenly Banquet. I want that, and pray for that, for all those I know who are separated from the Fullness of God's Truth.

BTW I know that not all the pastors are trying to be false prophets; many, I'm sure, learned it from their Dad or someone. Nevertheless, don't claim yourself as Bible believing unless you believe the Bible literally. Why are we Catholics (esp. the very conservative ones that are in good status) the ones that do it most yet we get complained to about not knowing it--even by the EWTN people?

Sure, we don't read it thoroughly. We have helpers who write books and priests, bishops, Popes who teach us (Vatican-approved Catechesisms are the best because the above people can screw up and their thoughts/writings are not infallible unless it's declared infallible)--the old stuff is the best because it is likely devoid of bull like that. We have always had that in our Faith and made no efforts to hide it. A lot of the old stuff was filled with Bible verses. Those who cared to know their Faith and what to know from the Bible knew enough by reading them. We didn't need to mess with the Mass, memorize hundreds of verses or make us think not finding a passage right away to get us to not be ignorant of Scripture and thus, ignorant of Christ. I can't do those things, but I know enough to kill a Protestant's claim our Church is full of extra-Biblical way-out-there deductions or made-up stuff.


I believe it's a big part of why we are not going door to door or even overseas as (well-taught in the Faith--they'd better be) lay people.

Praying makes that unnecessary? I've heard of classic priests that went door to door of their parish inviting them to Mass.
Maybe we could show them what we do know; not what EWTN theologians and priests know.
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  #7  
Old Nov 8, '06, 8:59 pm
foolishmortal foolishmortal is offline
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Default Re: I don't agree with EWTN on not left or right, but heretic

EWTN made me proud to be a Catholic when I made my decision to stick with it (since churches not begun and maintained by Christ could not stick to such hard teachings having seen what goes on in other churches)--don't get me wrong, but, when all those people died in those planes, Mother Angelica, I believde, said they were all going to heaven as martyrs (what if one were an Atheist?). Fr. Corapi, who I love to listen to, backed the moving of Ascension Thursday as a Thursday Holy Day of Obligation to Sunday because everyone could celebrate it.

First of all, if you can't make it that Thursday, no fault. Otherwise, you know what they say, if the garbage people didn't come most every day, would most take the trash to the city dump often enough? We are weak. We need these holy days. These are important. When you move them to Sunday for convenience, it lowers the bar of most people's faith life one by one step. It's human nature. It even says it's not important enough to bother yourself with on an off-Sunday. Some there say Creation could have even been more than 6 days. What, was Jesus in the tomb for 300 or 3000 days because a day here is like a blink of God's eye? The Bible is set in days because a day was between 2 nights. God can do whatever he wants. No, Fr. Groeschel, no Big Bang need be plausible though science can be symptoms of God's movements of the universe's bodies when He intends to alter something.

They are the best most Catholics have for learning their Faith anymore. They do teach a lot of amazing things and have a beautiful Mass and liturgies, but they need to quit offering these philosophical insights of their own if the Church does not have a formal opinion because EWTN personalities have followings. Here's an idea, why doesn't the Pope require N.O. Masses done that way. Instead of bemoaning how all that mess was the trickery of charlatans, why does the Popes since V2 not make the intended Vatican 2 changes happen and all baloney be removed with canonical penalties if not followed? Why do they let us be led astray? Here's an idea, get rid of collegiality. It only, in recent decades, have allowed obstruction of true progress by liberals. After all, why did the 3rd secret say that Portugal would be where the dogmas would not be undermined?

With all this said, I am proud to be Catholic despite scandals and screw-ups in all things (at one time or another) not infallible. I'm just saying what concerns me about EWTN.
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  #8  
Old Nov 8, '06, 9:37 pm
CRW CRW is offline
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Default Re: I don't agree with EWTN on not left or right, but heretic

I still cannot see the reference to EWTN in your title...Sorry
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  #9  
Old Nov 11, '06, 4:31 pm
foolishmortal foolishmortal is offline
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Default Re: I don't agree with EWTN on not left or right, but heretic

EWTN hosts say there is no left or right; only orthodox Catholics and cafeteria Catholics. My point is that there is room for variation without going against solid Church teaching and it was fully taken advantage of after Vatican 2 with the removal of altars, the ridding of relics, etc.. I believe those who would vote Democrat would favor those kind of changes. They wanted to break down barriers, I believe, but instead, ended up breaking down faith. As all liberals don't have an agenda against religion (Christianity specifically, and Catholicism, more specifically) I cannot accuse the liberal clerics of being Masons in secret. I'm just saying they could--within the boundaries of Canon Law and infallible teachings--and they did. Technically, they were liberal, but not cafeteria Catholics. The SSPX and most conservatives just aren't that cunning; that must be where the term "reactionaries" came from. Funny, nowadays, when challenged, the liberals become reactionaries--but they can still pull their retorts off institutionally better than conservatives.
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Old Nov 11, '06, 5:04 pm
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Default Re: I don't agree with EWTN on not left or right, but heretic

Foolish,

You are all over the place, I can't understand what your point is. Why are you so focused on dissidence and what such-and-so is saying or not saying? Mother Angelica is entitled to her opinion the same as you. You should be focused on your soul and your relationship with Christ, and whether or not you are listening and carrying out his directives for you. You will not answer for Mother Angelica, or Fr. Corapi, or anybody else for that matter. Such brooding over other people's imagined failures keeps the Holy Spirit from working in you. You will answer for that. Stop your huffing, puffing and bloviating and start praying.
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Old Nov 11, '06, 5:09 pm
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Default Re: I don't agree with EWTN on not left or right, but heretic

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Originally Posted by Ceil-1 View Post
Foolish,

You are all over the place, I can't understand what your point is. Why are you so focused on dissidence and what such-and-so is saying or not saying? Mother Angelica is entitled to her opinion the same as you. You should be focused on your soul and your relationship with Christ, and whether or not you are listening and carrying out his directives for you. You will not answer for Mother Angelica, or Fr. Corapi, or anybody else for that matter. Such brooding over other people's imagined failures keeps the Holy Spirit from working in you. You will answer for that. Stop your huffing, puffing and bloviating and start praying.
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Old Nov 11, '06, 5:37 pm
Crumpy Crumpy is offline
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Default Re: I don't agree with EWTN on not left or right, but heretic

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Originally Posted by havemercy View Post
What the heck do people have against EWTN?

You just can't please some people.
There are threads on EWTN, which discuss things.

What I don't like is that Mother Angelica seemed to be the dictator and final judge about everything. She seemed to be her own standard and applied it across the network.

I don't think that you have to have Latin in the Mass, as much as she beat this subject to death.

I disliked her matronizing attitude with callers to her "Live" program. She was a "Mother" Superior to her order, but I don't understand why she had everybody calling her "Mother."

It seemed phony and forced, like that episode of Seinfeld, where Elaine was dating this guy who insisted on being called "Maestro."

The Mass on EWTN is a "conventual" Mass -- that is, it follows the standards and practices (such as the use of Latin) of a convent, instead of the norms that I have seen at Masses across the country.

I don't like how EWTN Masses largely use the same syrupy sweet melodies for the Mass. When the nuns were there, there was quite some artistic music. The music is now dropped below the previous quality. We're supposed to like Gregorian Chant. Well, why is that? Because Sister Angelica liked it? Did the viewers decide on that?

I think EWTN should be leading the country in excellence of the Order of the Mass. What we hear in the day-in, day-out comments, is that the EWTN staff is using the donations to the network for lots and lots of travel -- which edifies them. Well, how about a little more that edifies us?

Why not some more intercessions at Mass for the donors and benefactors of EWTN, instead of always for the pope, the bishops, the priests, the nuns, the brothers, and usually not much else except very frequently for Mother Angelica herself?

As I said before, I guess if I had a religious network, I'd make sure everybody was praying for me, too.



I agree, that I don't know what this thread has to do with EWTN, specifically.
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Old Nov 12, '06, 10:58 am
Manfred Manfred is offline
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Default Re: I don't agree with EWTN on not left or right, but heretic

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Originally Posted by foolishmortal View Post
Fr. Corapi, who I love to listen to, backed the moving of Ascension Thursday as a Thursday Holy Day of Obligation to Sunday because everyone could celebrate it.
Fr. Corapi never wimps out on expressing his displeasure with some erring cleric or bishop, unlike many of those who ARE called "shepherds".


Quote:
Originally Posted by foolishmortal View Post
Here's an idea, why doesn't the Pope require N.O. Masses done that way. Instead of bemoaning how all that mess was the trickery of charlatans, why does the Popes since V2 not make the intended Vatican 2 changes happen and all baloney be removed with canonical penalties if not followed? Why do they let us be led astray? Here's an idea, get rid of collegiality. It only, in recent decades, have allowed obstruction of true progress by liberals. After all, why did the 3rd secret say that Portugal would be where the dogmas would not be undermined?
Fair enough about proper celebration (and penalties for failures thereof) of the Novus Ordo, since just how many US bishops and priests are REALLY going to allow widespread celebration of the Tridentine Mass? Collegiality for the bishops allows them to "table" discussions and decisions for as long as they feel like it.

As for your comment on the third secret of Fatima - sorry, but this is STILL PRIVATE REVELATION, not on a par with Scripture, Tradition or the Magesterium.
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Old Nov 12, '06, 11:32 am
jemfinch jemfinch is offline
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Default Re: I don't agree with EWTN on not left or right, but heretic

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Originally Posted by foolishmortal View Post
For this matter, maybe "Extra ecclesia non salus (no salvation outside the Church"
Extra ecclesia nulla salus

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Old Nov 12, '06, 5:34 pm
drforjc drforjc is offline
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Default Re: I don't agree with EWTN on not left or right, but heretic

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We're supposed to like Gregorian chant
Umm... see Sacrosanctum Concilium. Gregorian chant is to be afforded "pride of place."
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