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  #1  
Old Nov 12, '06, 11:47 pm
yinekka yinekka is offline
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Question Did Jesus quote from the Septuagint?

I have read the Jesus quoted from the Septuagint but why would He, He wasn't part of the diaspora.
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  #2  
Old Nov 13, '06, 12:03 am
rtconstant rtconstant is offline
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Default Re: Did Jesus quote from the Septuagint?

At the time of Christ it was the most widely used set of scriptures. Most Jews at the time used the Septuagint. The hebrew scriptures as you would know them today were organized well after Christ's death. Part of the reason for the use Septuagint (assumably) would obviously have been the fact that Greek was common tongue of the day so it would have been practical. Also, it was the the most current set of authoritative scripture.
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  #3  
Old Nov 13, '06, 2:02 am
Todd Easton Todd Easton is offline
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Default Re: Did Jesus quote from the Septuagint?

It is possible that the current Hebrew text is corrupt, either intentionally or unintentionally, and that the Greek Septuagint, though a translation, is closer in meaning to the original Hebrew text. And so it only seems that Jesus, who probably spoke only Aramaic to his disciple, quoted Scripture from the Greek Septuagint when the Apostles and apostolic men later translated His words into Greek.
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  #4  
Old Nov 13, '06, 2:19 am
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Zooey Zooey is offline
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Default Re: Did Jesus quote from the Septuagint?

I would imagine that He quoted from the Septuagint (and He did!! Wherever there is a difference between the two, He uses the variation from the Septuagint over the Hebrew), because He knew & believed that it was a better text.
And, considering Who He was & is, I kinda suspect that He was right!!!
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  #5  
Old Nov 13, '06, 3:01 am
Psalm45:9 Psalm45:9 is offline
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Default Re: Did Jesus quote from the Septuagint?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Easton View Post
It is possible that the current Hebrew text is corrupt, either intentionally or unintentionally, and that the Greek Septuagint, though a translation, is closer in meaning to the original Hebrew text. And so it only seems that Jesus, who probably spoke only Aramaic to his disciple, quoted Scripture from the Greek Septuagint when the Apostles and apostolic men later translated His words into Greek.
The Hebrew Texts found with the Dead Sea Scrolls actually match the LXX translation.
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  #6  
Old Nov 13, '06, 10:33 am
Valke2 Valke2 is offline
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Default Re: Did Jesus quote from the Septuagint?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Easton View Post
It is possible that the current Hebrew text is corrupt, either intentionally or unintentionally, and that the Greek Septuagint, though a translation, is closer in meaning to the original Hebrew text. And so it only seems that Jesus, who probably spoke only Aramaic to his disciple, quoted Scripture from the Greek Septuagint when the Apostles and apostolic men later translated His words into Greek.
It seems unlikely that the Septuagint would be more accurate than the Hebrew text it was based on. What exactly do you mean when you say it is possible that the current Hebrew text is corrupt. My understanding is that the Septaugint that is used today is not exactly the best translation of the Septuagint that was created in 300-200 BCE.
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  #7  
Old Nov 13, '06, 10:37 am
mercygate mercygate is offline
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Default Re: Did Jesus quote from the Septuagint?

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Originally Posted by Valke2 View Post
It seems unlikely that the Septuagint would be more accurate than the Hebrew text it was based on. What exactly do you mean when you say it is possible that the current Hebrew text is corrupt. My understanding is that the Septaugint that is used today is not exactly the best translation of the Septuagint that was created in 300-200 BCE.
I am not an expert on this subject but the idea that the Hebrew Scriptures were "corrupt" would send up a red flag in my mind.

These uptight, compulsive people (that's admirable, btw) who had two or three people check every single word when the Torah was copied. I would be surprised to learn that there was much less stringency with the rest of the Tanakh.
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  #8  
Old Nov 13, '06, 11:14 am
Valke2 Valke2 is offline
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Default Re: Did Jesus quote from the Septuagint?

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Originally Posted by mercygate View Post
I am not an expert on this subject but the idea that the Hebrew Scriptures were "corrupt" would send up a red flag in my mind.

These uptight, compulsive people (that's admirable, btw) who had two or three people check every single word when the Torah was copied. I would be surprised to learn that there was much less stringency with the rest of the Tanakh.
I'm no expert either and I almost regretted posting anything about this subject. One of the problems is that the texts are so close but that such small differences result in such large discrepancies in interpetation. Just keep reading and do the occassional random act of lovining kindness, and everything else will take care of itself.
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  #9  
Old Nov 13, '06, 2:13 pm
RCCDefender RCCDefender is offline
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Default Re: Did Jesus quote from the Septuagint?

Did Jesus quote from the Septuagint? Short answer: Of course!
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  #10  
Old Nov 13, '06, 4:04 pm
Todd Easton Todd Easton is offline
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Default Re: Did Jesus quote from the Septuagint?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valke2 View Post
It seems unlikely that the Septuagint would be more accurate than the Hebrew text it was based on. What exactly do you mean when you say it is possible that the current Hebrew text is corrupt. My understanding is that the Septaugint that is used today is not exactly the best translation of the Septuagint that was created in 300-200 BCE.
What I meant is that it is possible that accidental or intentional changes were made by the human copyists to the ancient Hebrew text in the copies they made after the Greek Septuagint translation was created so that extant copies of the modern Hebrew text, which I understand date back only to about A.D. 900, may not be exactly the same as the ancient Hebrew text of 200 B.C. from which the Greek Septuagint translation was created. If this is the case, the Greek Septuagint translation may be closer in meaning to the ancient Hebrew text than the modern Hebrew text is. This would explain why, when Jesus' words were translated into Greek in the Gospels that He seems to quote more often from the Greek Septuagint than from the modern Hebrew text. In fact, the posting above by Psalm45:9 would seem to indicate that this is the case.
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  #11  
Old Nov 13, '06, 4:10 pm
rtconstant rtconstant is offline
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Default Re: Did Jesus quote from the Septuagint?

Well I don't think that the Hebrew texts were currupt I just think that at the time the Jewish leaders didn't feel much pressure to work out which texts too use since there was an existing scripture that had served them well.

In terms of authority the fact that Our Lord and His Apostles used is all that I need to know. Truth be told the fact that Our Lord used it pretty much makes the Septuagint the most dependable text we have. The rest is theory.

The push to reastablish a Hebrew Scripture was actually instigated by the growth of the Church. As the Church spread it brought the sacred scripture with it. As such the septuagint was completely eclipsing the Hebrew scriptures in people's minds. The rabbis feared that Greek would soon be seen as the language of the scriptures and not Hebrew. So they then set about compling an authroritative Hebrew scriptures.

My only problem with the Hebrew Scriptures (for use by the Church) is that they were compiled by non-Christians. I don't say that with any venom I honestly get where the rabbis were coming from. In their shoes I'd probably want to do the same thing. For the Jews the scriptures aren't just sacred they're the record of their people. I can totally understand why that they wouldn't want the record to continue to be associated with a foreign tongue.

Still, Jesus Christ approved the Septuagint by using it. The Apostles approved the Septuagint by using it. I personally don't think you get a better recomendation than that.
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  #12  
Old Nov 13, '06, 5:37 pm
Valke2 Valke2 is offline
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Default Re: Did Jesus quote from the Septuagint?

How do you know that Jesus quoted from it. Is is possible that his disciples while writing their gospels quoted from it but that Jesus did not? Or are they giving direct quotes from Jesus?
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  #13  
Old Nov 13, '06, 8:47 pm
rtconstant rtconstant is offline
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Default Re: Did Jesus quote from the Septuagint?

Well I don't know for sure it just seems reasonable since it was the dominant scripture at the time. If Jesus had preferred something else I think they would have noted it and it likely would have influenced the Church's canon.
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  #14  
Old Nov 13, '06, 8:55 pm
rr1213 rr1213 is offline
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Default Re: Did Jesus quote from the Septuagint?

Not to sound flip here, but why are we all giving our opinions as to whether Jesus quoted from the Septuagint, or would have, or should have, or whatever? Isn't this a factual question that is capable of discernment and proof? What do the Greek and Hebrew experts amongst us (don't look at me) say about this? Can't we (or, rather, the experts) tell if there are any passages from Christ in the New Testament that are clearly from the Septuagint, as opposed to other sources, based on the words used?
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  #15  
Old Nov 13, '06, 10:57 pm
Valke2 Valke2 is offline
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Default Re: Did Jesus quote from the Septuagint?

There's nothing document wise prior to 300CE that can be used as proof that JEsus quoted from the Septuagint. http://www.avpublications.com/avnew/downloads/PDF/q10.pdf#search='did%20jesus%20quote%20fr om%20the%20Septuagint'

Did Jesus Recognize a Specific Text of Scripture?

Did Jesus recognize a specific text form of scripture? It does not appear so, for his usage of scripture is allusive, paraphrastic, and-so far as it can be ascertained-eclectic. We find agreement with the proto-Masoretic text, with the Hebrew under-lying the Septuagint (perhaps even the Septuagint itself), and with the Aramaic para-phrase. Several examples from each category will illustrate the phenomena. The examples that are chosen are the most obvious, in that they stand over against the readings in the other versions. http://www.bible.ca/b-canon-jesus-fa...manuscript.htm


Jesus' scripture quotations and allusions sometime agree with the Septuagint against the proto-Masoretic Hebrew. Jesus' quotation of Isa 29:13 is quite septuagintal, both in form and meaning (cf. Mark 7:6-7). But...

Some of Jesus' quotations and allusions to scripture agree with the proto-Masoretic text against the Septuagint. In the parable of the Growing Seed (Mark 4:26-29) Jesus alludes to Joel 4:13 (ET 3:13): "he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come." Mark's therismos ("harvest") renders literally the Hebrew gsyr, unlike the Septuagint's trygetos ("vintage").
(same link)
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