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  #46  
Old Nov 16, '06, 7:32 am
Writer Writer is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

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Originally Posted by JBT View Post
Fidelis writes “An implication can be drawn....It can also imply....”. Valiant Lucy does the same thing when she writes, “It implies...” The possibility of drawing an implication that an error could be meant by the text is not the same as an assertion in the text which is an error. In the first case, the reader is reading the error in (or perhaps complaining that the error isn’t specifically excluded); in the second, the author, by means of his text, is clearly stating something erroneous.

For myself, if I reflect on this verse from a Catholic perspective, I agree that grace does teach one’s heart to fear, because the gift of the fear of the Lord is a grace which teaches; grace relieves fear, because it teaches us to trust God’s love (and there is certainly nothing wrong with linking God’s gracious love with the sacramental system -- He did!!!). I recently saw an adult convert weep with joy in the first hour after being received into the Catholic Church.

In the Catechism, we are instructed, so as to avoid rash judgment, to interpret another’s thoughts, words and actions positively, or at least to ask questions to clear up any doubtful negative interpretations (cf. 2477-78). The possibility of negative implications as to meaning does not satisfy my request for clear and specific actual heresy stated in the text, and Karl's newsletter did state unequivocally, "And one of the songs actually is heretical." So, where is the out-and-out actual heresy? Anybody else?
These are great points... It seems that perhaps one hurdle in accepting this hymn is a lack of understanding or appreciation for the conversion experience. As a former Protestant, however, I can state that I have also witnessed this in both Catholic and Protestant churches. To deny its existence or value, undermines the work of the Holy Spirit to convict people of their sins. Also, if we examine the hard life of John Newton, in particular, I wonder whether, if he had died immediately following his conversion experience, would he have been welcomed into heaven (via Purgatory, of course)? As Catholics, we believe in three types of baptism: ordinary (that's not the right way to put it, but I am late for work), baptism by fire, and baptism by desire. It seems that Newton might fall under the last category, but this conjecture itself (done to try to defend the hymn) leads us into dangerous territory of judging our behavior, which, in turn, reminds us perhaps of the need to be a little more objective in the criticism of music which has been used by the Holy Spirit to bring many to Christ. (In fact, someday I may tell a story about this song was an answer to prayer to my family and led us to the Catholic Church--by way of a stopover at the Episcopal Church.)

PS. My wife asked me to also point out that the conversion experience has to come before the baptism experience (for the adult). It is the moment where an adult decides for Christ, which must happen before baptism. So, the argument that the hymn is in error because it fails to discuss baptism, misses the fact that the adult believer must decide for himself to be baptized.
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Last edited by Writer; Nov 16, '06 at 7:50 am.
  #47  
Old Nov 16, '06, 7:54 am
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

Last follow-up to my earlier post... I don't see how any Catholic can downplay the conversion experience when we have saints such Saint Augustine who had dramatic experiences that led them to Christ.
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  #48  
Old Nov 16, '06, 9:31 am
littlebit122280 littlebit122280 is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

It is only in the Catholic faith that one
will discover what it is that fulfills "the deepest longings of the
human heart."

Look, I'm not trying to get my head bitten off here but, to me, that's like saying that if you're not a Catholic, you're going to burn in hell. I don't agree with that. I am a Catholic but, I don't attend church most of the time. Every time I go, I feel like I'm being judged by people who have no right to judge me.

As far as the music is concerned....it is probably some of the most boring music I come across. I'm not saying that Catholic churches need to change the music to the point where you're doing the hoe down but, if it's putting people to sleep, there's a problem. I like a lot of Catholic songs but, most of them are just either to old or not really grabbing my attention.

That's my opinion anyway. Like I said, I don't want to feel like I'm going to get my head bitten off but, I'm going to say what I feel.
  #49  
Old Nov 16, '06, 9:46 am
manualman manualman is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

I should clarify that my critique of Canticle of the Sun is of the English Gather version, I'm hardly qualified to criticise Francis' work! The Gather version quite clearly gives praise TO creation as much as Creator. Somebody must agree with me since later versions often read 'praise for ...'

I have found Louis de Montfort excruciatingly hard to read. K-McD, Are you saying that he accepts that the unbeliever is totally depraved? Given the titles he gives the blessed mother, I suspect one might be able to draw such conclusions from hyperbole in his writings that aren't intended to be straightforward factual like we are used to in today's English.
  #50  
Old Nov 16, '06, 10:06 am
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Smile Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

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Originally Posted by Writer View Post
These are great points... It seems that perhaps one hurdle in accepting this hymn is a lack of understanding or appreciation for the conversion experience. As a former Protestant, however, I can state that I have also witnessed this in both Catholic and Protestant churches. To deny its existence or value, undermines the work of the Holy Spirit to convict people of their sins. Also, if we examine the hard life of John Newton, in particular, I wonder whether, if he had died immediately following his conversion experience, would he have been welcomed into heaven (via Purgatory, of course)? As Catholics, we believe in three types of baptism: ordinary (that's not the right way to put it, but I am late for work), baptism by fire, and baptism by desire. It seems that Newton might fall under the last category, but this conjecture itself (done to try to defend the hymn) leads us into dangerous territory of judging our behavior, which, in turn, reminds us perhaps of the need to be a little more objective in the criticism of music which has been used by the Holy Spirit to bring many to Christ. (In fact, someday I may tell a story about this song was an answer to prayer to my family and led us to the Catholic Church--by way of a stopover at the Episcopal Church.)

PS. My wife asked me to also point out that the conversion experience has to come before the baptism experience (for the adult). It is the moment where an adult decides for Christ, which must happen before baptism. So, the argument that the hymn is in error because it fails to discuss baptism, misses the fact that the adult believer must decide for himself to be baptized.
Oops! I wouldn't usually draw attention to my typing errors, but I have to correct this:

"...leads us into dangerous territory of judging our behavior..."

should be

"leads us into the dangerous territory of judging others"

Of course, we'd better be judging our own behavior, or we're in trouble!
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  #51  
Old Nov 16, '06, 10:35 am
DaveBj DaveBj is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

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Originally Posted by Writer View Post
*snip*

It may help to re-read the lines which appear to be at the heart of the controversy.

'Twas Grace that tought my heart to fear
And Grace, my fears relieved
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.

*snip*
I think that some posters are mis-interpreting Newton's words.

Reread the above verse, taking special note of the last two lines. Don't concentrate on the last line alone. What Newton was saying was that it was the hour he first believed that he realized how precious God's grace was.

As a total sinner whom God shook awake at the age of 29, and then as a fundamentalist (small f) Protestant whom God graciously brought into the Catholic Church at the age of 58, I can embrace that verse whole-heartedly.

DaveBj
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  #52  
Old Nov 16, '06, 10:58 am
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

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Originally Posted by Karl Keating View Post
God continually offers actual grace to the unbeliever, but actual grace itself is not sufficient for salvation. One needs sanctifying grace. This comes first through baptism and, later, through other sacraments.

The implication of "Amazing Grace" is that it comes when a person, acting under the influence of actual grace, "accepts Christ as his personal Lord and Savior." This is erroneous and is why the hymn should not be used at Mass.
I have to agree with Karl Keating. The song Amazing Grace along with other factors somewhat drew me away from the catholic faith as seemed to promise grace wthout works and I was not getting the sanctifying grace through the sacraments. It seemed like it was suppose to be a short cut to God but turned out to be a wide and wandering path instead of the straight and narrow. I sometimes wonder why I would have wanted to take directions if I knew they were wrong except maybe to prove they were the wrong way? I wasted 40 years and I guess God will deal with my generation now. return from the desert

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  #53  
Old Nov 16, '06, 12:02 pm
criffton criffton is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

First of all, when I joined this forum, I didn't know it was headed by Keating. It was the amazing book Catholicism and Fundamentalism that began open me up to the Church, a process continued by Chesterton and many other writers. So it is an honor.

Back on topic, I agree with DaveBj above, we may be misinterpreting the song above. I love the song, and will continue to. Coming from a protestant background I know that God does work there to, and that I have and had a strong faith before God lead me to the church (I have my third rcia class this week).

'Twas Grace that tought my heart to fear
God's grace lead Newman to seek after the truth and God, fearing for his soul and looking for salvation from his sins.

And Grace, my fears relieved
Upon finding the grace of God and the Gospel, he found salvation, the sweetest music to the desperate.

How precious did that Grace appear, The hour I first believed.
What he may have of wanted to go away during the first line, he now sees as precious and beautiful, the Grace had been there the entire time, but now that he believes in the Gospel and has found Christ's sacrifice, this is often called the "honeymoon" in evangelical circles talking about new converts to Christianity, the period after finding the Grace of God at work, but before one realizes that living for Christ is not an easy thing, and then relying on the grace of God is so much more vital.
  #54  
Old Nov 16, '06, 12:34 pm
Writer Writer is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

As I re-read the words, it seems to me that any number of Catholic saints must have spoken similar sentiments at the moment or day of their conversion, turning to Christ. I suggest that any problems with the hymn may be due to reading things into it which aren't there, and (perhaps) an unconscious bias towards anything dealing with Protestants. I think this bias is also an influence upon the some of politically correct issues that some Catholics are drawn to (as opposed to the issues some of our Evangelical brothers are pursuing) , but that's for another thread...
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  #55  
Old Nov 16, '06, 2:30 pm
Karl Keating Karl Keating is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlebit122280 View Post
It is only in the Catholic faith that one
will discover what it is that fulfills "the deepest longings of the
human heart."

Look, I'm not trying to get my head bitten off here but, to me, that's like saying that if you're not a Catholic, you're going to burn in hell. I don't agree with that. I am a Catholic but, I don't attend church most of the time. Every time I go, I feel like I'm being judged by people who have no right to judge me.
1. No it's not "like saying that if you're not a Catholic, you're going to burn in hell." I'm not trying to bite off your head, but I do expect you to read more carefully and not to read into other people's words ideas that aren't there.

2. You say you feel like you're "being judged by people who have no right to judge" you when you go to Mass. How's that? Most people at Mass pay little attention to others around them. They aren't there to observe the fellow two pews over; they're there to pray and worship.

What makes you think those around you are "judging" you or even paying any attention to you at all? Is it because of the way you comport yourself or maybe the way you dress? If you show up with green hair, immodest clothing, or a big tatoo on your forehead, it's likely that people will stare, though even that doesn't mean that they're "judging" you.

If you don't dress improperly or otherwise don't look odd, and if you don't do anything untoward at Mass (such as singing at the top of your voice instead of at a normal level or bouncing around as though you have St. Vitus' dance), then I suspect that you're simply imagining that others are "judging" you.
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  #56  
Old Nov 16, '06, 2:37 pm
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

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I am almost afraid to ask what people think of the song "Sing A New Church".... would it be a new thread to ask what songs are the worst in common usage?
Mama Trish, there are threads going right now on this very subject in the Liturgy and Sacraments Forum. I'm sure you'd be welcome to contribute.

Betsy
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  #57  
Old Nov 16, '06, 3:28 pm
trth_skr trth_skr is offline
 
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

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...in Catholic churches you will find many hymns sung by protestants. A Mighty Fortress was written by Martin Luther. There are a number of hymns by the Wesleys. And, a lot of protestant hymnals have "Catholic" hymns included (e.g. One Bread One Body.) ...
All stepping stones to the New Pantheon (TM). Of course, to be fair, we need to give the hymms themselves a chance based on what is stated, but what is wrong with good old Catholic music- like Gregorian chant? No need for guitars. No rock drum sets needed. Just some reasonable voices. It is likely possible to translate / compose some in English (and other languages). Supplement this with Ave Marias and other classical hymms, and you have a more Catholic sounding Catholic Mass.

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  #58  
Old Nov 16, '06, 9:46 pm
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

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Originally Posted by littlebit122280 View Post
It is only in the Catholic faith that one
will discover what it is that fulfills "the deepest longings of the
human heart."

Look, I'm not trying to get my head bitten off here but, to me, that's like saying that if you're not a Catholic, you're going to burn in hell. I don't agree with that. I am a Catholic but, I don't attend church most of the time. Every time I go, I feel like I'm being judged by people who have no right to judge me.

As far as the music is concerned....it is probably some of the most boring music I come across. I'm not saying that Catholic churches need to change the music to the point where you're doing the hoe down but, if it's putting people to sleep, there's a problem. I like a lot of Catholic songs but, most of them are just either to old or not really grabbing my attention.

That's my opinion anyway. Like I said, I don't want to feel like I'm going to get my head bitten off but, I'm going to say what I feel.
You are probably feeling like you just don't fit in right away, I felt that way for awhile too. We aren't going to bite your head off and Jesus jusst wants to forgive us and to receive the Eucharist His body and blood. If you get so relaxed that feel like taking a nap maybe God is jusst trying to calm your spirit down so just let Him for only an hour OK? Try finding a more joyfull hymn in the book and ask the priest if they can play it. No one is to judge you that is between you and God.

return from the Desert
PSALM 100;3
KNOW THAT THE LORD IS GOD!
IT IS HE THAT MADE US, AND WE ARE HIS;
WE ARE HIS PEOPLE, AND THE SHEEP OF HIS PASTURE
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  #59  
Old Nov 17, '06, 4:22 am
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

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Originally Posted by DaveBj View Post
Reread the above verse, taking special note of the last two lines. Don't concentrate on the last line alone. What Newton was saying was that it was the hour he first believed that he realized how precious God's grace was.
I think you have a point many people miss. One can not separate the second two lines from the first. In light of the first line, where God is working on the heart in the past tense, we see that John Newton is talking about how the grace of God brings us to the point of conversion even before we believe. This, therefore, cannot be sanctifying grace that he is talking about, because if precedes salvation. I believe most who were converted later in life can see how God bestoyed his grace upon them prior to the willingness to believe in him and prior to our baptism.

Furthermore, all that is mentioned is that this grace appeared precious to him at the moment of cnversion. It actually does not say that this is when he received sanctifying grace. As an analogy, when i started attending Mass and underwent conversion to the Catholic Faith, I was unable to receive the Sacramental grace from the Holy Eucharist for months. Yet I can pinpoint a specific time and place when I can say how precious that Grace appeared when I believed.

I can by that the song is misleading, especially where a parish has not had solid teaching on what makes us distictively Catholic. I can also understand the arguement that such testimonial songs are not appropriate for Mass. I just do not see explicit heresy and I don't believe in implicit heresy.
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  #60  
Old Nov 17, '06, 2:38 pm
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

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Originally Posted by Mama Trish View Post
I am almost afraid to ask what people think of the song "Sing A New Church".... would it be a new thread to ask what songs are the worst in common usage?
Do a search on that title and you'll see many a thread pop up!
I can't even bring myself to sing it. I wish our Bishop would ban it (along with Amazing Grace, I might add).
 

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