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  #61  
Old Nov 17, '06, 3:33 pm
RichP RichP is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forum Admin View Post
Karl's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

"Incandescent hatred": That puts it well.
I read NCR weekly. Have to. It's part of the job. When the paper sticks
to straight news reporting, it actually does fine. Its editorials and
opinion columns are another matter, though. The latter, especially,
often are filled with bitterness. As bad as the columns can be, the letters
to the editor usually are worse, full of bile and bad arguments. And
the worst of the letters tend to come from priests, who, if nothing else,
demonstrate in a hundred words that in the 1960s or 1970s they made
very bad career moves.
I grew up during the 60's and 70's when Vietnam was THE topic of the times. I recall that there were many creative and not so creative ways for guys to dodge the draft and avoid Vietnam. One was is through college deferment although if someone flunked out of school, they were immediately drafted. College graduates were pulled into Officer's School if I remember correctly. Two "permanent" deferements were for students who were going to become teachers and divinity students including seminarians.

I was thinking that part of the poor quality of priests from the 60's and 70's is due not to a poor career choice but by draft dodgers who deliberately joined the seminary to avoid the draft and stuck with the priesthood for whatever reason. I am not saying that all priests were draft dodgers... But there must be a reason for some of the poor quality of priests without blaming Vatican II for everything. Just a thought...
__________________
Rich P.

(Luk 24:32 NAB-A)
Then they said to each other, Were not our hearts burning (within us) while he spoke to us on the way and opened the scriptures to us?
  #62  
Old Nov 19, '06, 11:08 am
StephanieC StephanieC is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

RichP, I have never before heard that explanation given (draft deferment/inappropriate candidates for priesthood). Wow, it makes a lot of sense to me.

I just began reading George Weigel's "The Courage to be Catholic", where he very articulately and thoughtfully describes the priest scandal, what led up to it & where to go from here.

Your post was in the back of my mind while I was reading about what contributed to the scandal.

I am wondering if you happened to have come across any authors who discuss this? Just curious, to see if anyone has factored this in as well.
  #63  
Old Nov 19, '06, 5:30 pm
Writer Writer is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

Returning for a moment to "Amazing Grace", here is an excerpt from Saint Augustine's Confessions where he is describing his own conversion to Christ at the end of Book Eight.

"I flung myself down under a fig tree--how I know not--and gave free course to my tears. The streams of my eyes gushed out an acceptable sacrifice to thee. And, not indeed in these words, but to this effect, I cried to thee: “And thou, O Lord, how long? How long, O Lord? Wilt thou be angry forever? Oh, remember not against us our former iniquities.” 259 For I felt that I was still enthralled by them. I sent up these sorrowful cries: “How long, how long? Tomorrow and tomorrow? Why not now? Why not this very hour make an end to my uncleanness?”

29. I was saying these things and weeping in the most bitter contrition of my heart, when suddenly I heard the voice of a boy or a girl I know not which--coming from the neighboring house, chanting over and over again, “Pick it up, read it; pick it up, read it.”260 Immediately I ceased weeping and began most earnestly to think whether it was usual for children in some kind of game to sing such a song, but I could not remember ever having heard the like. So, damming the torrent of my tears, I got to my feet, for I could not but think that this was a divine command to open the Bible and read the first passage I should light upon..."

If we examine the tone and atmosphere of this moment of converison, we see many similarities to John Newton's story of conversion as told in "Amazing Grace". It is also interesting how many times Saint Augustine discusses the quality of grace in Confessions as a whole. In my view, this hymn is not an all-encompassing or complete analysis of grace, but it instead is a snapshot of grace received at the moment of conversion. Nothing in the hymn says that only grace is needed. As a matter of fact, if we were to examine the story of this man's life, we'd see that his initial experience of saving grace led to substantitive changes within both his personal and business life. More than the hymn-writer himself, however, the hymn expresses the joy of the Christian conversion experience. If you are blest to be a "cradle Catholic" and can't pinpoint a similar moment in your adult years, it doesn't change the reality of the moment for others.

I am in the process of writing an article with a working title of "Surf and Turf" that explores some of the subtle cultural or social differences between many Catholics and Protestants, and I may talk more about this interesting topic at that time, since it illustrates other issues. If interested in this article, feel free to drop me a note. Blessings!
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Karl Bjorn Erickson is an essayist as well as the author of Tristan's Travels and Toupee Mice.
  #64  
Old Nov 20, '06, 7:02 pm
DonProfondo DonProfondo is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlebit122280 View Post
It is only in the Catholic faith that one will discover what it is that fulfills "the deepest longings of the human heart."

Look, I'm not trying to get my head bitten off here but, to me, that's like saying that if you're not a Catholic, you're going to burn in hell. I don't agree with that.
Well, think about it. To say that a person cannot be truly fulfilled except through the Catholic faith is NOT the same as saying that if you are not Catholic, you are going to hell. Two entirely different claims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlebit122280 View Post
I am a Catholic but, I don't attend church most of the time. Every time I go, I feel like I'm being judged by people who have no right to judge me.
Maybe you're projecting.
  #65  
Old Nov 20, '06, 10:52 pm
geraldffff geraldffff is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

I can't sing but I try. I go to mass and see a lot of people who do not try. I detect what seems to me like hi-brow snobery in some of the comments above. I am gratefull for the fact some people are able and donate their time to the music ministry. I like simple songs but that may not mean much to people with the gift. I have never thought much about the doctrineal meaning of the song. All I know is it helps us commoners to use our voices to Praise the Almighty. It is not nice to exclude people by song arrangements that can only be followed by thoese who are trained in song. That encourages the idea that we are attending a show rather than being part of what is going on.
  #66  
Old Nov 21, '06, 10:16 am
Writer Writer is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by geraldffff View Post
I can't sing but I try. I go to mass and see a lot of people who do not try. I detect what seems to me like hi-brow snobery in some of the comments above. I am gratefull for the fact some people are able and donate their time to the music ministry. I like simple songs but that may not mean much to people with the gift. I have never thought much about the doctrineal meaning of the song. All I know is it helps us commoners to use our voices to Praise the Almighty. It is not nice to exclude people by song arrangements that can only be followed by thoese who are trained in song. That encourages the idea that we are attending a show rather than being part of what is going on.
I think this is a really good point. I happen to love classical and ancient church music, but the music shouldn't become a stumbling block in and of itself; the emphasis should be on God. This also hits on an interesting topic regarding regional differences in singing practices in Catholic churches. I have not yet read it, but I understand there is a great book called something like Why Catholics Can't Sing that explores this issue in greater depth. It is always startling for us, though, when we visit churches in the Dallas, TX area, because it seems that people don't sing the same way they do in the northwest. We've only attended a handful of these churches in Texas, though, so I hessitate to draw big conclusions as to why...
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Ecce crucem Domini

Tiber Swim Team - Class '05



Karl Bjorn Erickson is an essayist as well as the author of Tristan's Travels and Toupee Mice.
  #67  
Old Nov 21, '06, 11:38 am
Ham1 Ham1 is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by criffton View Post
First of all, when I joined this forum, I didn't know it was headed by Keating. It was the amazing book Catholicism and Fundamentalism that began open me up to the Church, a process continued by Chesterton and many other writers. So it is an honor.

Back on topic, I agree with DaveBj above, we may be misinterpreting the song above. I love the song, and will continue to. Coming from a protestant background I know that God does work there to, and that I have and had a strong faith before God lead me to the church (I have my third rcia class this week).

'Twas Grace that tought my heart to fear
God's grace lead Newman to seek after the truth and God, fearing for his soul and looking for salvation from his sins.

And Grace, my fears relieved
Upon finding the grace of God and the Gospel, he found salvation, the sweetest music to the desperate.

How precious did that Grace appear, The hour I first believed.
What he may have of wanted to go away during the first line, he now sees as precious and beautiful, the Grace had been there the entire time, but now that he believes in the Gospel and has found Christ's sacrifice, this is often called the "honeymoon" in evangelical circles talking about new converts to Christianity, the period after finding the Grace of God at work, but before one realizes that living for Christ is not an easy thing, and then relying on the grace of God is so much more vital.
You and davebj make good points. The song is not heretical when examined thoroughly. It is not stating that there is some magical infusion of grace at the precise moment of belief. Rather there is an appreciation and recognition of the grace of God at work in one's life. It has its roots in the very Catholic idea that all goodness comes from God.
  #68  
Old Nov 21, '06, 5:36 pm
Philip76 Philip76 is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

Which song is "On Eagles' Wings"? I have heard several songs with that phrase in them. I can't think of one, from memory, that is unsuitable for Mass.
  #69  
Old Nov 21, '06, 6:35 pm
ophirmama ophirmama is offline
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Default Re: Karl's E-Letter of November 21, 2006

Hi, I disagree with getting rid of The Prayer of St. Francis; I embraced the message in the prayer, went through RCIA and 15 yrs or so later I am still living the prayer. I get recharged everytime I hear the song or walk past my cross stitch of it.
  #70  
Old Nov 21, '06, 9:16 pm
geraldffff geraldffff is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

Whenever I feel upset by an experience in the church I reflect on John 6:68 in context. To me this a definative guide that I am on the right track no matter what is going on around me. The City of God, The Catholic Church is the only one who gives justice to the content of this message. So what ever we sing that moves my heart to Christ Jesus is alright with me.
68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."
  #71  
Old Nov 21, '06, 9:34 pm
beadtwister beadtwister is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

Pretty simple as i see it. Why is Karlo being so cryptic? Why can't he just say what he means and explain his reasoning. Same reason most people do this sort of thing... something has got us bugged but we can't back it up with solid evidence. Nice try though. As a musician, I wouldn't be so hip as to retire songs i have a personal distaste for when they bring so much to so many. the theological points would be well taken (if offered). Keep twistin'.
  #72  
Old Nov 21, '06, 9:48 pm
Writer Writer is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by beadtwister View Post
Pretty simple as i see it. Why is Karlo being so cryptic? Why can't he just say what he means and explain his reasoning. Same reason most people do this sort of thing... something has got us bugged but we can't back it up with solid evidence. Nice try though. As a musician, I wouldn't be so hip as to retire songs i have a personal distaste for when they bring so much to so many. the theological points would be well taken (if offered). Keep twistin'.
I think what some people perhaps don't always understand is the emotional power some hymns carry with people. When a loved hymn is insulted it's like a punch to the gut in a way. Perhaps that's a hymn that may have sparked a more spirtual life, a move towards the Catholic Church, or been sung quietly at the bedside of a dying relative. Criticism without a real explanation ends-up being simply criticism for the sake of criticism.

Some of us likely aren't confident or articulate enough to express our own opinions in as elloquent a way as the other point of view. In my own case, as I have alluded, the hymn "Amazing Grace" is responsible in no small way in bringing my family along the way to the Catholic Church. It also was involved in a very specific way as an answer to prayer which made it clear that God's leading hand was on our family. There's a reaon that this simple Irish melody resonates in the hearts of both Protestants and Catholics: its words are a reflection of truth.
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Ecce crucem Domini

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Karl Bjorn Erickson is an essayist as well as the author of Tristan's Travels and Toupee Mice.
  #73  
Old Nov 22, '06, 2:54 pm
RichP RichP is offline
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Default Re: Karl Keating's E-Letter of November 14, 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by StephanieC View Post
RichP, I have never before heard that explanation given (draft deferment/inappropriate candidates for priesthood). Wow, it makes a lot of sense to me.

I just began reading George Weigel's "The Courage to be Catholic", where he very articulately and thoughtfully describes the priest scandal, what led up to it & where to go from here.

Your post was in the back of my mind while I was reading about what contributed to the scandal.

I am wondering if you happened to have come across any authors who discuss this? Just curious, to see if anyone has factored this in as well.
I have not read anything that discusses this. This is all speculation on my part. I would think that it would be EXTREMELY difficult for any researcher to find anyone to admit they went to a seminary or divinity school to avoid the draft....

There might also be a connection between the number of predatory gay men who became priests and their inability to get out of the draft using a 4F deferment. I think a 4F was hard to get. There weren't many other options available for gay men to avoid the draft... Again, research information probably is not readily available...
__________________
Rich P.

(Luk 24:32 NAB-A)
Then they said to each other, Were not our hearts burning (within us) while he spoke to us on the way and opened the scriptures to us?
  #74  
Old Nov 22, '06, 3:54 pm
Eliza10 Eliza10 is offline
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Default On Eagles Wings

I had the impression that On Eagles Wings is all scripture based - that is, Isaiah and also a Psalm (92?). But then Karl did not say this is heretical. The tune itself, though lovely when well-sung, particularly by a solist, just isn't condusive to congregational singing. Peoples voices are all over the place when they sing this song.




Lyrics to "On Eagles Wings:
  • You who dwell in the shelter of the Lord,
    Who abide in His shadow for life,
    Say to the Lord, "My Refuge,
    My Rock in Whom I trust."
    • Refrain
      And He will raise you up on eagle's wings,
      Bear you on the breath of dawn,
      Make you to shine like the sun,
      And hold you in the palm of His Hand.
    The snare of the fowler will never capture you,
    And famine will bring you no fear;
    Under His Wings your refuge,
    His faithfulness your shield.

    • Refrain
      And He will raise you up on eagle's wings,
      Bear you on the breath of dawn,
      Make you to shine like the sun,
      And hold you in the palm of His Hand.
    You need not fear the terror of the night,
    Nor the arrow that flies by day,
    Though thousands fall about you,
    Near you it shall not come.

    • Refrain
      And He will raise you up on eagle's wings,
      Bear you on the breath of dawn,
      Make you to shine like the sun,
      And hold you in the palm of His Hand.
    For to His angels He's given a command,
    To guard you in all of your ways,
    Upon their hands they will bear you up,
    Lest you dash your foot against a stone.

    • Refrain
      And He will raise you up on eagle's wings,
      Bear you on the breath of dawn,
      Make you to shine like the sun,
      And hold you in the palm of His Hand.
      And hold you in the palm of His Hand.
  #75  
Old Nov 22, '06, 4:20 pm
Eliza10 Eliza10 is offline
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Default #2

Then there's:

2. Here I Am, Lord

This one is a an odd, wending story. I think what makes it particularly odd is the part-changing. Its me singing pretending I'm God, singing: "I am Lord!" and also in the same song I switch parts and I become ME, singing: "Here I am! I will go! I will hold your people!" Ah, me!


I am always so glad to sing at Mass. I was Baptist, and we really sang praises (and sang and sang!) on Sundays. It was the godliest part of being Baptist.

But with this song, like many others at Mass, I am singing: "I am Lord! I will give them life!" It is just not as inspiring as singing: "You are Lord! You give us life!"

See the difference? How uninspiring to sing my praises.

Sinigng like I am in an acting class, and I am playing the part of God, along with all the people around me also playing God, is kind of a flat expereince. But singing as my true self, praising Our Lord, in the company of other believers also praising our Lord, makes me feel as if I am singing with heavenly angels (and I don't care that the voices aren't angelic!).


Here I am Lord:
1. I the Lord of sea and sky,
I have heard my people cry
All who dwell in dark and sin,
My hand will save,
I who made the stars of night
I will make their darkness bright
Who will bear my light to them,
Whom shall I send?

Chorus
Here I am, Lord, Is it I Lord?
I have heard You calling in the night
I will go, Lord, If You lead me
I will hold Your people in my heart.

2. I, the Lord of snow and rain
I have borne my people's pain
I have wept for love of them
They turn away
I will break their hearts of stone
Give them hearts of love alone
I will speak my word to them,
Whom Shall I send? Chorus
Here I am, Lord, Is it I Lord?
I have heard You calling in the night
I will go, Lord, If You lead me
I will hold Your people in my heart.

3. I, the Lord of wind and flame
I will tend the poor and lame
I will set a feast for them,
My hand will save
Finest bread I will provide
Till their hearts be satisfied
I will give my life to them,
Whom shall I send?

Chorus
Here I am, Lord, Is it I Lord?
I have heard You calling in the night
I will go, Lord, If You lead me
I will hold Your people in my heart.
 

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