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  #1  
Old Dec 14, '06, 5:46 pm
GandalfTheWhite GandalfTheWhite is offline
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Default Origin of Seven Sacraments

Hello,

I'm trying to discover the origin of the Sacraments. Basically, I'm looking for some answers and/or apologetic essays that would disprove the traditional protestant rejection (based on Sola Sriptura) of most of the sacraments. So, can we support all sacraments using the Bible? Or is it mainly Sacred Tradition?

Thanks a lot.

God bless!
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  #2  
Old Dec 14, '06, 6:05 pm
jbuck919 jbuck919 is offline
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Default Re: Origin of Seven Sacraments

Better apologists than myself will give you the references you need (although I suspect newadvent.com [the old Catholic Encylopedia] does as good a job as anything could. But the premise of your post--that the common Protestant position on this subject requires refutation--is what concerns me. They threw out five sacraments; we did not add them. Let them do all the explaining, justifying, and rationalizing, while you sit and calmly file your nails.
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  #3  
Old Dec 14, '06, 6:21 pm
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: Origin of Seven Sacraments

Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfTheWhite View Post
Hello,

I'm trying to discover the origin of the Sacraments. Basically, I'm looking for some answers and/or apologetic essays that would disprove the traditional protestant rejection (based on Sola Sriptura) of most of the sacraments. So, can we support all sacraments using the Bible? Or is it mainly Sacred Tradition?

Thanks a lot.

God bless!
This should help you.

http://www.catholic.com/library/sacraments.asp
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  #4  
Old Dec 14, '06, 6:37 pm
GandalfTheWhite GandalfTheWhite is offline
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Default Re: Origin of Seven Sacraments

Quote:
Better apologists than myself will give you the references you need (although I suspect newadvent.com [the old Catholic Encylopedia] does as good a job as anything could. But the premise of your post--that the common Protestant position on this subject requires refutation--is what concerns me. They threw out five sacraments; we did not add them. Let them do all the explaining, justifying, and rationalizing, while you sit and calmly file your nails.
Ye, I know what you mean. It's a bit lit: Sola Sriptura...bla bla...7 Sacraments not in the Bible...bla bla...where did you Catholic Church get them from.

The real reason for this thread is that I want to be able to explain 7 Sacraments. Since I also want to use it in a discussion with a protestant (who asked me "where did the Church get those from - they aren't in the Bible?" because he pretty much believes that the Church made it up) I would like to concentrate on what the Bible has to say about them and how the Catholic Church draws them from the Bible. This doesn't mean that that's all I require. I would like to read about it and get the whole picture put also concentrate on what I mentioned above since that is actually his question.
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  #5  
Old Dec 14, '06, 6:46 pm
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onenow1 onenow1 is offline
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Default Re: Origin of Seven Sacraments

Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfTheWhite View Post
Ye, I know what you mean. It's a bit lit: Sola Sriptura...bla bla...7 Sacraments not in the Bible...bla bla...where did you Catholic Church get them from.

The real reason for this thread is that I want to be able to explain 7 Sacraments. Since I also want to use it in a discussion with a protestant (who asked me "where did the Church get those from - they aren't in the Bible?" because he pretty much believes that the Church made it up) I would like to concentrate on what the Bible has to say about them and how the Catholic Church draws them from the Bible. This doesn't mean that that's all I require. I would like to read about it and get the whole picture put also concentrate on what I mentioned above since that is actually his question.
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  #6  
Old Dec 14, '06, 7:10 pm
JonathanKinsman JonathanKinsman is offline
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Default Re: Origin of Seven Sacraments

Gandalf;

It is important to remember that in any discussion of sacraments or sacramentals with a non-Catholic you must set the ground rules as to what is meant by a "sacrament."

When you understand our Church's teaching on what constitutes a sacrament and why, then you will be more comfortable explaining yours, mine and our position (we happy few, we loving band of brothers, we Body of Christ!) to those separated from the Church founded by Christ upon St Peter and the Apostles.

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) it says "The sacraments are perceptible signs (words and actions) accessible to our human nature. By the action of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit they make present efficaciously the grace that they signify." (CCC, 1084)

There are many other cites to what the Church teaches (from the Bible she put together and the traditions she inherited prior to that canon being assembled some 350 years after our Lord's death and Resurrection) and a good site is Immaculate Heart Radio homepage (i think its ihr.org) where there is a link to the online CCC on the lower right.

Historically, we inherited our belief in sacred signs and symbols from Judaism. The Ark of the Covenant for example was a symbol of God's presence among the Israelites. Moreover, the Ark was an efficacious symbol which accounts for the fact that it was carried into battle to ensure victory against their enemies. The ritual blessing of the eldest son, the Passover meal, the rabbinic blessing of marriage, the official confession of sins, the anointing of the sick with oil.
Even baptism was first a rite in Judaism for the cleansing of sin and preparation for acceptance into the Kingdom of God.

Remember, Jesus was a Jew. He knew his laws and his customs and his sacraments. Catholics are, in essence, Jews of the New Covenant, we are the spiritual heirs of the Jewish faith (the CCC addresses this concept too).

So to any bible thumping Protestant, I think he (or she) would be hard pressed to deny Jesus His Jewish sacraments and their place in God's plan of salvation.

The NT never uses the word sacrament, but it mentions numerous ritualistic actions that were efficacious signs of spiritual realities.

Here is a short list: Baptism (Acts 8:12-13); the Eucharist (1Cor 10:16, Luke 24:13-43, John 20:19-23, 26-29); Holy Orders (ordination) or the Laying on of Hands (Acts 19:1-7).

Now it is important to remember that upon undergoing this rite (Holy Orders) the believer came to manifest what St Paul called the "fruits of the Holy Spirit" (Gal 5:22-23).

The word sacrament comes from its use in the Vulgate of St Jerome (a compilation of the oldest and best manuscripts of the Septuagint and the NT) into Latin. The word sacramentum, which meant the pledge of allegiance to the Emperor that was administered to recruits when they entered the Roman Army. It was first applied to a Christian (that is, Catholic) ritual by Tertullian around 190 AD, when he spoke of baptism as a sacramentum since it represented entrance into Christian life and a statement of complete allegiance to the teachings of Christ.

This is a beginning for you, I hope it helps.


Pax Christi
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  #7  
Old Dec 14, '06, 8:02 pm
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onenow1 onenow1 is offline
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Default Re: Origin of Seven Sacraments

I hope this helps GTW ; And Jesus came and said to them, all authority in heaven and earh has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,teaching them to observe all I have commanded you; and lo I am with you till the end of the age.[ Matthew 28: 16-20.Baptism.]
[John 6, Euchrist], [John 20: 22-23, Confession], [EPH 1: 13-14, 4: 30, Confirmation], [Matthew 19: 6-8, John 2: 11 Matrimony], [Hebrews 5: 1-4 Holy Orders], [ James 5: 13-16 Annointing of the sick.]


Peace
OneNow1
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  #8  
Old Dec 14, '06, 8:03 pm
boppaid boppaid is offline
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Default Re: Origin of Seven Sacraments

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonathanKinsman View Post
Gandalf;

It is important to remember that in any discussion of sacraments or sacramentals with a non-Catholic you must set the ground rules as to what is meant by a "sacrament."

When you understand our Church's teaching on what constitutes a sacrament and why, then you will be more comfortable explaining yours, mine and our position (we happy few, we loving band of brothers, we Body of Christ!) to those separated from the Church founded by Christ upon St Peter and the Apostles.

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) it says "The sacraments are perceptible signs (words and actions) accessible to our human nature. By the action of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit they make present efficaciously the grace that they signify." (CCC, 1084)

There are many other cites to what the Church teaches (from the Bible she put together and the traditions she inherited prior to that canon being assembled some 350 years after our Lord's death and Resurrection) and a good site is Immaculate Heart Radio homepage (i think its ihr.org) where there is a link to the online CCC on the lower right.

Historically, we inherited our belief in sacred signs and symbols from Judaism. The Ark of the Covenant for example was a symbol of God's presence among the Israelites. Moreover, the Ark was an efficacious symbol which accounts for the fact that it was carried into battle to ensure victory against their enemies. The ritual blessing of the eldest son, the Passover meal, the rabbinic blessing of marriage, the official confession of sins, the anointing of the sick with oil.
Even baptism was first a rite in Judaism for the cleansing of sin and preparation for acceptance into the Kingdom of God.

Remember, Jesus was a Jew. He knew his laws and his customs and his sacraments. Catholics are, in essence, Jews of the New Covenant, we are the spiritual heirs of the Jewish faith (the CCC addresses this concept too).

So to any bible thumping Protestant, I think he (or she) would be hard pressed to deny Jesus His Jewish sacraments and their place in God's plan of salvation.

The NT never uses the word sacrament, but it mentions numerous ritualistic actions that were efficacious signs of spiritual realities.

Here is a short list: Baptism (Acts 8:12-13); the Eucharist (1Cor 10:16, Luke 24:13-43, John 20:19-23, 26-29); Holy Orders (ordination) or the Laying on of Hands (Acts 19:1-7).

Now it is important to remember that upon undergoing this rite (Holy Orders) the believer came to manifest what St Paul called the "fruits of the Holy Spirit" (Gal 5:22-23).

The word sacrament comes from its use in the Vulgate of St Jerome (a compilation of the oldest and best manuscripts of the Septuagint and the NT) into Latin. The word sacramentum, which meant the pledge of allegiance to the Emperor that was administered to recruits when they entered the Roman Army. It was first applied to a Christian (that is, Catholic) ritual by Tertullian around 190 AD, when he spoke of baptism as a sacramentum since it represented entrance into Christian life and a statement of complete allegiance to the teachings of Christ.

This is a beginning for you, I hope it helps.


Pax Christi
Hi. I know I must be wrong, but I really thought that Christ changed the "laws" of the old testament..."jewish laws". Am I mistaken? If so, which were the laws that he changed?
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  #9  
Old Dec 16, '06, 7:31 pm
Red Wolf Red Wolf is offline
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Default Re: Origin of Seven Sacraments

JonathanKinsman,
Thank you for the http://www.ihradio.org/ site.

boppaid,
Mostly diet and day we celebrate, the day He rose.

I think it is important to differentiate between the early Protestants and modern. This is not my view of modern Protestants. The Reformation seems to have been a time when the “reformers” were feeling liberated from more than the Pope.

They did away with their vows: freed their clergy to marry, and married people to divorce.
They did away with confirmation: freed their clergy from teaching catechism, the laity from having to learn it; they were either saved or not, nothing they could do about it.
They did away with confession: freed their clergy from all those hours of listening to other people’s dreary lives, and trying to direct them to God.
They did away with the last rites: freed their clergy from having to go out on short notice; people die at such inconvenient times.

This is the view of a Roman Catholic looking back at the Reformation. I get a great feeling that they felt liberated in many ways beyond this. Talking to other Roman Catholics but I hope Protestants reading this can accept it as the honest view of a Roman Catholic, on the five Sacraments in question, at the time of the Reformation; and not as an attack on them. I will vouch for the long hours, hard work and dedication of ministers I’ve worked with.
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  #10  
Old Dec 16, '06, 8:07 pm
Nita Nita is offline
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Default Re: Origin of Seven Sacraments

Quote:
It is important to remember that in any discussion of sacraments or sacramentals with a non-Catholic you must set the ground rules as to what is meant by a "sacrament."
And, I might add, you'll have to explain the Catholic understanding of "grace". Many protestants (not all) define "grace" as free gift which consists of God's decision not to punish us for our sins. There is no perception of anything infused into our souls.

Nita
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