Whose sins you forgive...John 20:22-23

[Ladybug42]

Originally Posted by HailMary

Ladybug42:

Confession only works when the person confessing is truly sorry for his sins and has a firm purpose of amendment to change his or her life.

You are correct, the priest is not a mind reader ( funny that you mention that because read Acts 5 and you will see that the priests (in this case the Pope) have a special charism when it comes to this) and thats why we don't need to impose the concept of the priests knowing whether this person is saying the truth or not for it to be a valid Sacrament.

Well, if by valid you mean that the sin is forgiven when the person is not repentant, then no I would have to disagree. If you mean that the priest is still a representative of God, and we can still partake of God's grace through confessing to someone who has made their vocation out of helping us understand God and know our assurance of forgiveness.........with God's blessing and presence........then I agree.

I would love to partake of that Sacrament. But I also can confess to an Anglican priest, and not have to believe in some things that seem irreconcilable to Scripture. Maybe that will change with time and prayer.........but that is up to God, not me. RCIA is on hold for the time being due to what the church appears to teach, and then what it's adherents teach. I've had flashbacks of the LDS experience I had. When one person would assure away my doubts, and then another person would contradict them. My priest said that confession to a priest is not necessary for forgiveness of sins--but he stressed that it is a good and vital part of being Catholic. He told me that my own sins were forgiven if all criteria were met, even if I did not confess to a priest. And then on this forum, I hear people say otherwise. Warning flags went up immediately, and I dropped RCIA. The LDS experience is not one I want to repeat. If I think that a denom is contradicting itself, then I'll back off. So either I am really confused, you are incorrect, or I need to stay away from the Catholic Church.

I am wondering......do the Catholic individuals on here believe that Protestants have forgiveness of sins? We cannot participate in Confession as Catholics do. My priest said yes......but is that what folks on here believe?

[mercygate]

Originally Posted by Ladybug42

Well, if by valid you mean that the sin is forgiven when the person is not repentant, then no I would have to disagree.

Uh-uh. Penitence is absolutely essential. Contrition is the matter of the sacramaent.

If you mean that the priest is still a representative of God, and we can still partake of God's grace through confessing to someone who has made their vocation out of helping us understand God and know our assurance of forgiveness.........with God's blessing and presence........then I agree.

More than a representative. In Paul's words, an ambassador of reconciliation. In other words, invested with the authority of the king. The priest acts -- again in Paul's words -- "in the person of Christ."

I would love to partake of that Sacrament. But I also can confess to an Anglican priest, and not have to believe in some things that seem irreconcilable to Scripture. Maybe that will change with time and prayer.........but that is up to God, not me.

I was an Anglican for 40 years and regularly made sacramental confessions. As for not believing things irreconcilable with Scripture: nothing the Catholic Church teaches in irreconcilable with Scripture. Honest.

RCIA is on hold for the time being due to what the church appears to teach, and then what it's adherents teach. I've had flashbacks of the LDS experience I had. When one person would assure away my doubts, and then another person would contradict them. My priest said that confession to a priest is not necessary for forgiveness of sins--but he stressed that it is a good and vital part of being Catholic. He told me that my own sins were forgiven if all criteria were met, even if I did not confess to a priest. And then on this forum, I hear people say otherwise. Warning flags went up immediately, and I dropped RCIA. The LDS experience is not one I want to repeat. If I think that a denom is contradicting itself, then I'll back off. So either I am really confused, you are incorrect, or I need to stay away from the Catholic Church.

I wonder what your priest was thinking? The mercy of God is wide and deep. Forgiveness of sins comes in many ways. But if you are a Catholic, confession to a priest is the ordinary means, and you MUST do it if you are conscious of grave sin on your conscience. Do you have a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church? The answers are in there. I don't blame you for being confused.

Catholicism doesn't contradict itself. People might but go straight to the Catechism. Even priests come up with some screwy ideas now and then.

I am wondering......do the Catholic individuals on here believe that Protestants have forgiveness of sins? We cannot participate in Confession as Catholics do. My priest said yes......but is that what folks on here believe?

Your priest was citing a wide teaching and leaving a lot of room for the Grace of God. The point with this sacrament is that Christ has assured us that through it, we obtain not only his mercy but the assurance of his mercy. To my mind, it is just about the best thing about being Catholic!

[Ladybug42]

Mercygate, thanks so much for your explanations, that really makes sense to me.

[mercygate]

Originally Posted by Ladybug42

Mercygate, thanks so much for your explanations, that really makes sense to me.

Thanks. I've walked the road; I know at least some of the landmarks.

But DO get a Catechism.

[mark a]

Originally Posted by Ladybug42

If you fool your priest (heaven forbid ) into believing that you are remorseful for murdering someone, when you are not, and he pronounces your forgivenes.........you are NOT forgiven.

I used to have the hardest time explaining this to my Baptist friends. They would say things like "Catholics think all they have to do is go to confession and they are forgiven".

I just couldn't get through to them. We are only required to confess mortal sins (degrees of seriousness of sins was another problem).

Catholics sometimes go to confession even when they are not required to (blank stares).

I would ask which is more difficult, secretly confessing your sins to God or confessing to God and your pastor?

[Ladybug42]

Originally Posted by mark a

I used to have the hardest time explaining this to my Baptist friends. They would say things like "Catholics think all they have to do is go to confession and they are forgiven".

From what I learned in RCIA, a priest does not give forgiveness of sins, but only pronounces it. We learned that a priest may pronounce a sin forgiven, but that only God knows someone's heart. So he discouraged lying during confession, because if you don't meet the requirements, then despite having a priest "forgive" your sins, they will not be forgiven. I do not have the misconception that the majority of Catholics believe this. I have been questioning what a few folks on here have been saying. I'll just look to the Catechism and ignore Catholics who dispute it from here on out.

I just couldn't get through to them. We are only required to confess mortal sins (degrees of seriousness of sins was another problem).

Catholics sometimes go to confession even when they are not required to (blank stares).

Confession is a good thing. Keeping secrets all bottled up isn't healthy. And it is a good thing to receive spiritual counsel from someone who has devoted their lives to it.

I would ask which is more difficult, secretly confessing your sins to God or confessing to God and your pastor?

I openly confess my sins to God. I confess my sins to others, as well. I have never formally confessed to a priest, although I have opened my heart in discussion with my old pastor.

And I have to say, that it seems more than wrong to hear someone refer to confessing to our Lord as "secretly confessing". Of all in the world, it is what He says that matters most to me.

If I cannot be open with Him, if I have to have a person mediate, then.........what in the world is Christ for? Christ alone acts as my High Priest. I do not need a Catholic priest to give me forgiveness. Christ assures me of that, and lays out the way to eternal life.

Priests are good, we need pastors.........but God alone forgives sins. In the Scriptures, people believed that Christ blasphemed, because he forgave sins. They said, who forgives sins but God alone? I say it here. Chirst forgave sins because He was God. Anyone else claiming more than mearly pronouning God's sins, is claiming somewhat more than they should. God alone does this.

[Sixtus]

I think it is more that Protestants believe that it is God who forgives sins, and not a priest. I believe that a priest can only pronounce God's forgiveness. The priest is put in a very special position to assure someone that their sins are forgiven. the priests can't read minds or know our hearts; only God can do that.

It is my understanding that The Church is an earthly prescription.

When I sin, it is sometimes necessary to talk it over with and be councilled by someone I can really trust, to help me arrive at a solution to problems which cause my sinning Often my sinning is the result of poor problem solving. By talking over intimate and private information in the safety that the person to whom I am speaking, I am often able to arrive at solutions to problems in my life which avoid the consquents of sinning.

That is my understanding of the primary role of the priest. He as God's representative can speak to me directly, using language I can hear and understand.

[mark a]

Originally Posted by Ladybug42

I do not have the misconception that the majority of Catholics believe this. I have been questioning what a few folks on here have been saying. I'll just look to the Catechism and ignore Catholics who dispute it from here on out.

Sounds like a plan.

Confession is a good thing. Keeping secrets all bottled up isn't healthy. And it is a good thing to receive spiritual counsel from someone who has devoted their lives to it.

One other point is that priests have the authority to not absolve sins. I heard a priest say once that an unmarried woman who was living with her boyfriend confessed this sin. He asked her what she planned to do about it, she said "nothing". He refused to absolve her, stating he would be in a state of mortal sin if he did. absolve her.

I openly confess my sins to God. I confess my sins to others, as well. I have never formally confessed to a priest, although I have opened my heart in discussion with my old pastor.

This is wonderful. Sounds like a type of confession.

And I have to say, that it seems more than wrong to hear someone refer to confessing to our Lord as "secretly confessing". Of all in the world, it is what He says that matters most to me.

But for most people, pride stops them from confessing their sins to other people.

If I cannot be open with Him,. . . . . if I have to have a person mediate, then.........what in the world is Christ for? Christ alone acts as my High Priest. I do not need a Catholic priest to give me forgiveness. Christ assures me of that, and lays out the way to eternal life.

Concerning sin, we are all "open" with Christ whether we realize it or not. It is our own acceptance of our shortcomings (pride) that is the problem.

but God alone forgives sins. In the Scriptures, people believed that Christ blasphemed, because he forgave sins. They said, who forgives sins but God alone? I say it here. Chirst forgave sins because He was God. Anyone else claiming more than mearly pronouning God's sins, is claiming somewhat more than they should. God alone does this.

Above you seemed to have a good understanding of the priests role in confession. Here you don't.

So what was John talking about when Jesus gave the apostles the power to forgive sins?

[twiggymoo]

Originally Posted by Pjs2ejs

I am fascinated with people who "have heard" of things dying out with the Apostles and actually believing it. Who did they hear it from? Is there some document or Early Church writing out there which has been secretly kept from the Church for 2000 years? I think the DaVinci Code is the only one.

John MacArthur uses that one quite a bit.

[Ladybug42]

Originally Posted by Sixtus

It is my understanding that The Church is an earthly prescription.

When I sin, it is sometimes necessary to talk it over with and be councilled by someone I can really trust, to help me arrive at a solution to problems which cause my sinning Often my sinning is the result of poor problem solving. By talking over intimate and private information in the safety that the person to whom I am speaking, I am often able to arrive at solutions to problems in my life which avoid the consquents of sinning.

That is my understanding of the primary role of the priest. He as God's representative can speak to me directly, using language I can hear and understand.

*nodding* Yes, that is my understanding, as well.

[Ladybug42]

So what was John talking about when Jesus gave the apostles the power to forgive sins?

Scripture does not contradict itself. If one piece, in context, appears to contradict another, then our understanding is incorrect. If only God can forgive sin, then the apostles are forgiving in name only. They are acting as God's representatives, telling us what He has laid out as far as forgiveness goes. As we have already established, a priest forgiving your sins is only true if God forgives you. Only God knows your heart. If we are truthful to the priest, then the priest can do his job better.

I hope this helps!

[mark a]

Maybe we are misunderstanding each other.
From your post above-

Originally Posted by Ladybug42

Scripture does not contradict itself. If one piece, in context, appears to contradict another, then our understanding is incorrect. If only God can forgive sin, then the apostles are forgiving in name only. They are acting as God's representatives, telling us what He has laid out as far as forgiveness goes. As we have already established, a priest forgiving your sins is only true if God forgives you. Only God knows your heart. If we are truthful to the priest, then the priest can do his job better.

We agree here.


From your earlier post-

From what I learned in RCIA, a priest does not give forgiveness of sins, but only pronounces it. We learned that a priest may pronounce a sin forgiven, but that only God knows someone's heart. So he discouraged lying during confession, because if you don't meet the requirements, then despite having a priest "forgive" your sins, they will not be forgiven. I do not have the misconception that the majority of Catholics believe this. I have been questioning what a few folks on here have been saying. I'll just look to the Catechism and ignore Catholics who dispute it from here on out.

We agree here.

But then you posted:
If I cannot be open with Him, if I have to have a person mediate, then.........what in the world is Christ for? Christ alone acts as my High Priest. I do not need a Catholic priest to give me forgiveness. Christ assures me of that, and lays out the way to eternal life.

. . . . which leaves me confused.

If you are saying that you are just as forgiven going straight to God as Catholics are by going to God through a Priest, then I'll take your word for it.

Are Catholics any less forgiven by going through a priest than you arre going straight to God?

[mercygate]

Originally Posted by Ladybug42

Scripture does not contradict itself. If one piece, in context, appears to contradict another, then our understanding is incorrect. If only God can forgive sin, then the apostles are forgiving in name only. They are acting as God's representatives, telling us what He has laid out as far as forgiveness goes. As we have already established, a priest forgiving your sins is only true if God forgives you. Only God knows your heart. If we are truthful to the priest, then the priest can do his job better.

I hope this helps!

Ladybug, Ladybug:

Of course only God forgives sins. And of course one's confession is invalid -- in Catholic lingo: a bad confession -- if one conceals or reserves anything in a confession. But Jesus' words were "whose sins you forgive (and the grammar is indisputable), they are forgiven, and whose sinse you retain, they are retained." And Paul states that "we" (apostles, presbyters) "have been entrusted with the ministry of reconciliation." Further, he states that in reconciling the incestuous man, whatever he forgave, "forgave I it in the person of Christ" (KJV).

Forgave I -- not God the Father or even Jesus: Forgave I it in the person of Christ. He stands "in the person of Christ" -- not just declaring that "Jesus forgives" but really acting Jesus' name. It's a beautiful thing!

Clearly, the priest is not just a handy counselor trained in spiritual matters and familiar with Scripture. He is -- again in Paul's words: an "ambassador for Christ." Ambassadors are entrusted to act with the powers of the King.

The priest serves with the hand of the Father in the person of Christ. How could you not LOVE that?

[Ladybug42]

Are Catholics any less forgiven by going through a priest than you arre going straight to God?

It was never my intention to say that. Or even think it. My beef is that I am being told that I have to go to a priest in order for my sins to be forgiven. Protestants don't usually make the accusation that going to a priest negates forgiveness; whereas, I hear a whole lot of folks on here say that a person needs to go to a priest in order to be forgiven. Thankfully not everyone, though.

[Ladybug42]

Clearly, the priest is not just a handy counselor trained in spiritual matters and familiar with Scripture. He is -- again in Paul's words: an "ambassador for Christ." Ambassadors are entrusted to act with the powers of the King.

Clearly, priests are both pastors and representatives of God. This does not give them saving power, which is what forgiving sins in practical terms negates to.

Let me give you an example. Yesterday, I told my daughter "there's Daddy" and pointed to our family portrait on the wall. Grammatically, I was saying that the photo on the wall was Daddy. What I was really doing, was pointing her to something that represented her father, but in no way was her father. That photo is a tool we use so that she does not forget what he looks like while he is deployed. Until Christ's return, we have been given pastors and priests, and we have been given the Eucharist, to point the way to God until His return. We have him, but these are visible ways to imbibe Him, and to understand His ways.