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  #1  
Old Jan 24, '07, 9:33 pm
Mr. Ex Nihilo Mr. Ex Nihilo is offline
 
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Question The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed...

It's been said that the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. From a Christian perspective, probably nowhere is this more evident than in the Psalms. In fact, this book is cited in the New Testament more than any other book of the Old Testament. More to the point, however, the Old Testament often speaks in typologies-- or, as Wick Broomall states...

Quote:
...a shadow cast on the pages of Old Testament history by a truth whose full embodiment or antitype is found in the New Testament revelation.
In other words, A typology is a real, exalted happening in the Israelite's history which was divinely ordained by God to be a prophetic picture of the good things which he purposed to bring to fruition in Christ Jesus. Or, as the Scriptures themselves succintly and aptly say in Colossians 2:17...

Quote:
These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
As an example of some typologies which Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants accept, any one of us could point toward Adam as a type of Christ. This is something which is outlined in Romans 5:19 for example. Likewise, the brazen serpent which was lifted up in the wilderness -- through which the people found physical healing -- was a type of the lifted-up Christ according to John 3:14 & John 12:32. It likewise seems to be generally agreed, as yet another example, that the Patriarchal Age in some way corresponds to the Apostolic Age-- in particular, the 12 tribes of Israel strongly parallels the 12 Apostles for example.

That mostly all Christians agree that there are certain typologies within the Hebrew Scriptures which fore-shadow greater revelations within the Christian Scriptures is a given.

But is it possible that these kinds of typologies and analogies are true in more ways than one, even extending well past the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures and into the scope of human history as well?

It is well known that, upon further examination, the typologies and analogies do not seem to stop with Adam, the brazen serpent, or the twenty four elders. The typologies are credited by some to be over one thousand for example. However, since “the New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed,” it would seem that a study of the Old Testament would be an imperative foundation for clarity of both Old and New Testament teachings.

More interestingly, though, is it possible that the general outline of the history of Israel itself actually in some way mirrors the general outline of the history of the Church herself?

In other words, it is possible that the entire history of Israel from approximately Abraham to Chirst roughly acts as broad typology for the entire history of the Christian Church as a whole-- with the 12 tribes of Israel roughly corresponding to 12 basic kinds of Christian denominations?

Consider some resources which are available on some non-Catholic web sites as follows:
For example, from the Orthodox, we observe the following outline of Church history from an Orthodox perspective.

Likewise, from an Evanglical tradition, we observe the following detailed outline of the Israelites history from the Old Testament.

Along similar lines, we also observe another detailed outline of the Israelites history from the Old Testament.

And, again, here we find yet another detailed outline of the Israelites history from the Old Testament.
  #2  
Old Jan 24, '07, 9:39 pm
SedesDomi SedesDomi is offline
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Default Re: The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed...

Which denomination corresponds to which tribe?
  #3  
Old Jan 24, '07, 9:44 pm
Mr. Ex Nihilo Mr. Ex Nihilo is offline
 
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Question The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed: Part II

Likewise, within my own NIV Study Bible, there is an Outline of Old Testament History which outlines broad historical periods rather than specific events. Interestingly, when I compare the Outline of Old Testament History with an Outline of New Testament History, a striking pattern of similarity does appear to emerge.

The Church in Relation to the History of Israel

As with the NIV Study Bible, this outline I linked to above emphasizes broad historical periods rather than specific events. Dates, which often depend on scholarly interpretation, are approximate. In other words, this timeline is by no means exact. Nonetheless, when one compares the general outline of the Old Testament in contrast to the general outline of the New Testament, a striking pattern of similarity does appear.

As I already mentioned above, it is generally agreed by many Christian groups that the Patriarchal Age in some way corresponds to the Apostolic Age-- in particular, the 12 tribes of Israel strongly parallels the 12 Apostles for example. However, the similarity in general outline does not seem to rest there.

For example, shortly after Patriarchal period, the Israelites appear to pass through the kingdom of Egypt in a way similar to the Early Church passing through the Roman Empire. Likewise. the Israelite's Exodus from Egypt seems to mirror the Church surviving the Fall of the Roman Empire. Even Joshua clearing the lands of Canaan which were opposed to the Israelites strangely corresponds to Constantine's victory over those Roman generals opposed to Christianity. And the brutal, chaotic period of the Judges strongly parallels the Dark Ages-- in these days the land had no king; everyone did as they saw fit.

One could also note that the United Kingdom of Israel parallels the Acendence of the Papacy from within the Catholic Church. Consequently, shortly thereafter, the Israelite kingdom dividing into Israel and Judah seems to correspond to the great schism of the Church dividing into the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. In this sense, after the kingdoms divided, Israel seems to mirror the pattern of the Orthodox Church whereas Judah seems to mirror the pattern of the Catholic Church. It is also during this time that the highest degree of corruption was observed within the both the kings of the divided kingdom Israel and the heirarchy of the Church

Furthermore, just as Israel was eventually exiled to Assyria, the Orthodox Church seems to have been largely dominated under the tyranny of radical Islam. In both cases, neither Israel nor the Orthodox ever completely ceased to exist. Their power and influence, however, became severely reduced when compared to their former glory. Likewise, just as Judah was eventually exiled to and returned from Babylon, the Catholic Church seems to have passed through the Protestant Reformation, a period of radical and destructive re-examination of doctrine and conscience for both Protestants and Catholics.
  #4  
Old Jan 24, '07, 9:48 pm
Mr. Ex Nihilo Mr. Ex Nihilo is offline
 
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Question The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed: Part III

It is also interesting to note that during this particular time in Old Testament history, just prior to the beginning of the Intertestament period, the world as a whole seems to have been undergoing a revolutionary kind of thinking-- a turning away from supernatural explanations toward philosophy during the Axial period that is not much different from the shift toward secularist thinking during the Renaissance during the New Testament. In other words, there seems to be strong elements of a world-wide shift in thinking transpiring during this period of human history-- and this movement away from religion toward philosophy during the Intertestimant periods seems to strongly mirror the movement toward secularlism after the Renaissance.

For example, during this time within the Old Testament, the Chinese philosopher Confucious proposed a new set of moral standards to replace the magical and religious standards of his time. This development in Chinese thought actually seems to parallel in many ways the shift from religion to philosophy that occured during the same time within the Greek culture too. Anaxagoras, the Greek philosopher, particularly stands out at this time; he was imprisoned for claiming that the Sun was not a god and that the Moon reflected the Sun's light. One could even draw a parallel between Anaxagoras and Copernicus in our Church Age when he challenged the heliocentric cosmology. In addition to this, it is also interesting to note that the composition of the Hebrew Scriptures (according to the Rabbinical schools of thought but not according to Catholic or Orthodox theology*) stops shortly around this time as well. For example, the book of Malachi is apparently claimed by modern day Judaism, to be the last book of the Hebrew Scriptures (and also the last book of the prophets in the Jewish editions). I find it rather remarkable that the time that modern day Judaism points toward the closing of the Hebrew Scriptures also mirrors the time the Prostestant Reformers rose up within the era of the New Testament and rejected these same books traditonally held within the canon of the Catholic Church.

*The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, however, teach that additional books of Scripture were indeed generated after this period, albeit in Greek.

More importantly however, just as the exiles of Judah returned to their land and initiated reforms under Ezra, the Catholic Church initiated the Counter Reformation. After this time, Judah no longer struggled with idolatry to the level they had formerly struggled, and the Catholic Church no longer struggled with abuses of Church authority to the level we had formerly struggled.

As noted above, after this time, the divided kingdom went through the Intertestimant period, just as the Catholic Church went through the Age of Enlightenment. But there's abit more too.

Indeed, Antiochius Epiphenes (which means “Manifestation of Light” or “Illustrious One”, his coins having been inscribed with the title: theos epiphanies meaning, "God manifest.") rose up and defiled the Hebrew Temple during this time, essentially proclaiming himself to be God while desecrating the Holy of Holies with pig's blood. Similarly, in approximately 1864, Bahá'u'lláh (an Arabic word which means "The Glory of God", or "He whom God shall make manifest", or, in a broader sense, the "supreme Manifestation of God") rose up and defiled the world's perception of God, essentially proclaiming himself to be God while initiating the dictatorship of relativism that we are currently struggling with in our modern day-- the abominable idea that all religions worship the same God or that all paths lead to the same spiritual destination.

I would also note that the slaughtering of the innocents during the birth of Christ seems to parallel the incredibly tragic and inhumane loss of life through abortion that we've observed around the world over the last 30 years or so.
  #5  
Old Jan 24, '07, 10:04 pm
Mr. Ex Nihilo Mr. Ex Nihilo is offline
 
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Default The 12 Tribes as Representative of Major Christian Groupings

Quote:
Originally Posted by SedesDomi View Post
Which denomination corresponds to which tribe?
Keep in mind that this is more of a thought experiment than an actual Catholic teaching. In other words, this is more of a ecumenical discussion designed to generate a good and holy discussion between Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants if possible.

My hope is that casting denominations in the light of fractured Israeli tribes instead of separated breathren may generate a more fruitful discussion which doesn't provoke frustration on any side of the debate if possible.

I realize that someone is bound to take offence. But the picture of several tribes from the same family working within one unit (even if working in opposition to each other at times) may prevent some offence.

Consequently, for the sake of this discussion, I'm treating the Catholic faith as if she were the tribe of Judah. There is a twist even with this however, since types often correcpond to antitypes-- so their is a sumblime inverison going on too.

Nonetheless. my hope and prayer is that this may generate true ecumenical discussion (and less arguing), true ecumenical discussion that is more in line with the Pope's urgeing us faithful to long for unity.
  #6  
Old Jan 24, '07, 10:56 pm
apophasis apophasis is offline
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Default Re: The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed...

The Church, the Body of Christ, was neither concealed or revealed in the Old Testament. It is a mystery that has now been revealed, but no prophecy in the Old Testament anticipated it.
Rom. 16:25-26 "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, {leading} to obedience of faith; to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen."

Eph. 3:4-5 "By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;"

Eph. 3:9 "and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;"

Col. 1:25-26 "Of {this church} I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the {preaching of} the word of God, {that is,} the mystery which has been hidden from the {past} ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,"
The Old Testament knew nothing of this Church age. It prophetically anticipated the first Advent of Christ (and anticipates still His second), the future, earthly, Millennial rule of Christ, the future glory of national Israel during that Millennial age with her King reigning and ruling on David's throne in Jerusalem over all the nations; but it knew absolutely nothing of the mystery of this present Church age when Christ is building His Church, made up those who personally believe in Him for salvation, calling it out from both individual Jews and Gentiles.

The Apostle Paul was chosen to be the revelator of this divine mystery. Without his Epistles we would know almost nothing of it.
  #7  
Old Jan 24, '07, 11:30 pm
Mr. Ex Nihilo Mr. Ex Nihilo is offline
 
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Default Re: The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by apophasis View Post
The Church, the Body of Christ, was neither concealed or revealed in the Old Testament. It is a mystery that has now been revealed, but no prophecy in the Old Testament anticipated it.
My apologies, but your theology appears to reflect a very small minority within Christianity. Catholics, Orthodox and many, many Protestants do very much believe that the New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed-- and this thought can be found all throughout Church history too, going right back to the Scriptures.

Anyway, thanks for the reply. But if we can't even agree on one of the common points that all Christians (except, apparently, you) agree with to at least some extent, then I'm not sure what else can be said.

Again, thanks for the reply. But I'll wait for another response from another poster if you don't mind. I'm not interested in arguing with you or changing your mind. I'm just interested in finding common ground that we can agree upon and then moving further from there as the Spirit carried us along.
  #8  
Old Jan 25, '07, 3:16 am
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Default Re: The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed...

Well, I'm subscribing, just becasue this is such an interesting idea!!
I hadn't heard that old saying (thread title) since, I believe, my grandmother died! My goodness. Hadn't even though t of it....
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  #9  
Old Jan 25, '07, 6:40 am
apophasis apophasis is offline
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Default Re: The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Ex Nihilo View Post
My apologies, but your theology appears to reflect a very small minority within Christianity.
Maybe so, but as I've demonstrated, it's Pauline and not based on the theory of one man.

Since you're trying to draw from history please take note that God always dealt with and through a minority, a remnant that believed and never departed from His literal Word.

The danger of your "experiment" is that of spiritualizing away many literal truths found in Scripture. The fact that there are "types" revealed in the Scriptures does not give the reader a licence to "typologize" anything he wants at will. Types themselves are revealed BY Scripture (allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture). Otherwise Scripture would be subject to the endless imaginations of mere men and will have lost all authority as the written Word of God.
  #10  
Old Jan 25, '07, 6:59 am
Mr. Ex Nihilo Mr. Ex Nihilo is offline
 
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Default Re: The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed...

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Originally Posted by Zooey View Post
Well, I'm subscribing, just becasue this is such an interesting idea!!
I hadn't heard that old saying (thread title) since, I believe, my grandmother died! My goodness. Hadn't even though t of it....
Thanks Zooey.

Like I said, I'm really trying to step back from a more aggressive and argumentative kind of 'evidence'. I'm hoping that this kind of more ecumenical approach can bridge gaps better and at least lead to better understanding between denominations of Christianity.
  #11  
Old Jan 25, '07, 7:17 am
Mr. Ex Nihilo Mr. Ex Nihilo is offline
 
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Default Re: The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed...

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Originally Posted by apophasis View Post
Maybe so, but as I've demonstrated, it's Pauline and not based on the theory of one man.
I guess I would just note that your demonstration actually demonstrates your interpretation of Pauline theology-- something which may not actually reflect Paul's theology in and of itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apophasis
Since you're trying to draw from history please take note that God always dealt with and through a minority, a remnant that believed and never departed from His literal Word.
There's no doubt about this-- no doubt that God's preserves a special group for the sake of clarity. But I don't think that your assertion necessarilly proves that your interpretation indicates that your theology reflects this remnant so to speak.

Besides that, the Scriptures clearly do indicate that faith in God will flourish under the new covenant in Christ. For example, Ezekiel 37:26 says...

Quote:
I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever.
And, again, in Habakkuk 2:14, we read...

Quote:
For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
So, bearing this in mind, I don't think your interpretation necessarilly implies that only certain people will know the truth. Rather, as the knowledge of the Lord spreads throughout the world, the glory of the Lord will likewise become more evident as people's hearts are changed by his increasing presence.

Indeed, as Jeremiah 31:31 clearly states...

Quote:
"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah."
Almost every Christian I know, contrary to your claims above, believes that this reference in Jeremiah is being fulfilled within the period of the New Testament leading toward the Second Coming of Christ. There's a lot more than this too.

So if you're going to claim that the Church, the Body of Christ, was neither concealed or revealed in the Old Testament, then I think you need to re-examine vitually every Hebrew text which many Christians do indeed believe are being fulfilled in the Christian era.

It is a mystery that has now been revealed-- and many prophecies in the Old Testament did indeed anticipate it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apophasis
The danger of your "experiment" is that of spiritualizing away many literal truths found in Scripture. The fact that there are "types" revealed in the Scriptures does not give the reader a licence to "typologize" anything he wants at will. Types themselves are revealed BY Scripture (allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture). Otherwise Scripture would be subject to the endless imaginations of mere men and will have lost all authority as the written Word of God.
Well, which one is it?

On the one hand you admit that there are many 'types' revealed in the Scriptures, types within the Scriptures which point toward Christ himself. And, on the other hand, you're claiming that the Church, the Body of Christ, was neither concealed or revealed in the Old Testament.

I'm not sure what you're claiming at this point.
  #12  
Old Jan 25, '07, 8:37 am
inJESUS inJESUS is offline
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Default Re: The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed...

Interesting thread please keep posting . God bless you.
  #13  
Old Jan 25, '07, 3:24 pm
apophasis apophasis is offline
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Default Re: The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Ex Nihilo
I guess I would just note that your demonstration actually demonstrates your interpretation of Pauline theology-- something which may not actually reflect Paul's theology in and of itself.
Sure it does since I am not reading anything into Paul's theology. I am allowing his writings to speak for themselves.
Quote:
Besides that, the Scriptures clearly do indicate that faith in God will flourish under the new covenant in Christ. For example, Ezekiel 37:26 says...
Ezekiel is stating nothing about the Church in this prophetic verse. In verse 24 the Lord says that at the time He makes (or establishes) that "covenant of peace" His Servant David will be king over them, they will walk in His ordinances, keep and observe His statutes. In verse 25 He says they will be living in the land He gave to Jacob and in which their father's lived. Now if that doesn't give you a hint as to whom the Lord is addressing through Ezekiel, then jump up to verse 21 for the context of Ezekiel's prophecy:
Ezek. 37:21 "Say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms" )cf. Eze. 34:11; 13; 20-25; 30; 36:8-12; 22-28; 33
Ezekiel 37 is the famous prophecy of the "dry bones" which refers to the physical and spiritual resurrection of national Israel at the end of the age (Matt. 24:3; cf. Acts 1:6). It speaks nothing of the Church or this present Church age.

Men spiritualize that prophecy and allegorically apply it to the Church, but when you allow the prophet to speak literally, the Church is not in view. As Paul taught in his Epistles, and I pointed out in my previous post, neither Ezekiel or any of the ancient Hebrew prophets knew anything of the Church or this Church age. It was a mystery hidden with God.
Quote:
And, again, in Habakkuk 2:14, we read... Quote:
"For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea."
Compare this to Zechariah 14:8-9, 16. Both Habakkuk and Zechariah were prophets to Israel and prophesied of the future glory of the reign of Messiah over Israel and the nations of the earth. This is the promised, earthly, Millennial Kingdom, and has no reference to the mystery of this Church age or the Church itself.

Continued next post.
  #14  
Old Jan 25, '07, 3:32 pm
apophasis apophasis is offline
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Default Re: The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Ex Nihilo
Indeed, as Jeremiah 31:31 clearly states...
Quote:
"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah."
You said it yourself. I put in bold type with whom this "new covenant" is established.

Jer. 31:31-40 is the prophecy concerning the New Covenant. Read further as Jeremiah elaborates even more on this future Covenant in 32:37-44. All within the context of national Israel.
Quote:
Almost every Christian I know, contrary to your claims above, believes that this reference in Jeremiah is being fulfilled within the period of the New Testament leading toward the Second Coming of Christ. There's a lot more than this too.
I don't doubt that almost every Christian you know interprets Jeremiah in such a way. But they could not interpret him that way unless they ignored completely who Jeremiah was literally addressing, and to whom the Lord Himself said He would establish His Covenant.

The New Covenant was certainly inaugurated at the cross of Christ through His shed blood, which brought an end to the "old" Covenant, the Mosaic Law. But although we individuals who make up the Church, the Body of Christ, are saved through the salvific value of Christ's shed blood, by which the New Covenant was inaugurated, the Covenant itself is yet to be "established" literally with national Israel just as Jeremiah literally indicates, and Paul himself agrees:
Rom. 11:25-27 "For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery -- so that you will not be wise in your own estimation -- that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob." This is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins."
Paul never commingles God's present program of Christ building His Church with God's revealed, future prophetic program for national Israel in the O.T. They are always kept distinct.
Quote:
Well, which one is it? On the one hand you admit that there are many 'types' revealed in the Scriptures, types within the Scriptures which point toward Christ himself. And, on the other hand, you're claiming that the Church, the Body of Christ, was neither concealed or revealed in the Old Testament. I'm not sure what you're claiming at this point.
There are "types" of Christ in the O.T., such as Abraham and his promised son Isaac, and as you pointed out, the lifting up of the bronzed serpent in the wilderness. But the point I am making is that nowhere in the Scriptures is it ever taught that God's primary purpose for Israel was to be a type of the Church. And nowhere in the N.T. is it ever taught that the Church is the antitype of national Israel.

This allegorical method of interpreting the O.T. Scriptures did not become prominent in the Church until Augustine. But neither Paul or the other writers of the N.T. viewed Israel allegorically, or as a type of the Church. The idea that Israel in the O.T. was a type of the Church is an invention of men and not at all supported in N.T. writings. Your allegorical method of interpreting O.T. prophecies regarding national Israel is completely unwarranted - and certainly not Pauline.
  #15  
Old Jan 25, '07, 4:41 pm
Mr. Ex Nihilo Mr. Ex Nihilo is offline
 
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Default Re: The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed...

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Interesting thread please keep posting . God bless you.
Thanks inJESUS. I'll try my best.
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