The Apostolic Authority of the Catholic Church

Randy Carson · #1 Jan 27, '07, 8:54 am

THE APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

The following scripture verses teach that the authority of the Catholic Church comes directly from Jesus Christ and that the Church – not the Bible – is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Luke 10:16
He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.

Matthew 16:18-19
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Matthew 18:15-18
If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

John 20:21-23
"Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

1 Timothy 3:15
“if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.”

George Craft · #2 Jan 27, '07, 8:58 am

Hi Randy,

Good points you made, also I'd like to add this thought, when you quoted:

Mat 18:15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. 16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Could these words of Jesus in Scripture also be referring to issue that arise over doctrines?

With love,
George

Fredricks · #3 Jan 27, '07, 9:08 am

Quote:

The following scripture verses teach that the authority of the Catholic Church comes directly from Jesus Christ and that the Church – not the Bible – is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

So the following scriptures teach......I have to chuckle.

Quote:

Luke 10:16
He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.

We do listen to the Apostles. We have the written words of Peter himself to teach us. We have the words of James the brother of the Lord. We have the words of the great Apostle Peter. Do you have something that you can prove that comes from the Apostles that we do not have?

Quote:

Matthew 16:18-19
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Yes, all who are Christians(his church) will not have the gates of Hades prevail. They will have everlasting life.

Quote:

Matthew 18:15-18
If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Yes, with the authority of the local church, we can do this. Amen. I agree.

Quote:

Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Yes, I would say Catholics and Protestants both agree with the great commision.

Quote:

John 20:21-23
"Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

I am not sure what to say on this one...Amen?

Quote:

1 Timothy 3:15
“if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.”

[/quote]
I agree the church is the pillar and the foundation of truth. It is the local church that teaches the truth.

Randy Carson · #4 Jan 27, '07, 9:26 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fredricks

John 20:21-23
"Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

I am not sure what to say on this one...Amen?

Bingo!

You don't know what to do with that one because you do not recognize any authority other than the Bible. Thank you for illustrating the point so perspicuously.

Looks like we can add "God-breathed" Church to the "God-breathed" scripture of 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

Fredricks · #5 Jan 27, '07, 9:34 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Carson

Bingo!

You don't know what to do with that one because you do not recognize any authority other than the Bible. Thank you for illustrating the point so perspicuously.

Looks like we can add "God-breathed" Church to the "God-breathed" scripture of 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

I am not sure where you are getting that? I do not think Protestants disagree, well most anyone, that the Apostles did not have the power to forgive sins. The leap is that the Apostles transferred or could transfer this authority to others.
While certainly a 12th is added in Acts to take the place of Judas, it occurs no where else in scripture. Your reasoning is a huge leap.
So once again I say, Amen

Truthstalker · #6 Jan 27, '07, 9:48 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fredricks

I am not sure where you are getting that? I do not think Protestants disagree, well most anyone, that the Apostles did not have the power to forgive sins. The leap is that the Apostles transferred or could transfer this authority to others.
While certainly a 12th is added in Acts to take the place of Judas, it occurs no where else in scripture. Your reasoning is a huge leap.
So once again I say, Amen

I am stunned, reading thing, feeling like a current is pulling me out into the Catholic sea. What good news would it have been if the apostles could forgive sins, if the church could do it in that generation, but no one could in any succeeding generation? The church still has the power, insists on it, to discipline its members, regardless of denomination.

It is not a leap to see new apostles taking the place of others: look at Acts 1 as a model. It is not a leap to say that there could be successors (Jesus promised to be with us to the end of the age, not just until John, last of the 12, died). The apostles did not transfer the power, for the power was Christ's. as was the choice. We see this modeled in Acts 1. The leadership of the church must continue. Paul, Timothy and Titus ran around installing elders using apostolic authority, that is, with authority granted by God. It is NOT human but divine authority.

Please tell me, on the other hand, where in Scripture anyone is commanded to gather up four Gospels and the apostolic letters and the book of Acts into one document. It's not there. By the argument that only things that are in Scripture should be done, it is then wrong to have a Bible.

Truthstalker · #7 Jan 27, '07, 9:53 am

In John 21, Jesus asks Peter three times about whether he loved him. Peter replied in the affirmitive and Jesus told him to feed his sheep. Pastor his sheep. He is the only one who gets the treatment, and I don't want to hijack this mighty fine thread into the papacy, but the point is that Peter's reinstatement into a pastoral office is predicated on his love of the Lord.

The Catholic Church has seen a high number of people in positions of authority who do not love the Lord, who are thus disqualified from being called legitimate holders of apostolic authority. Without faith, without love, with only avarice and greed in their hearts they seized control of the Catholic Church. And you claim that their authority is legitimate. Why?

HailMary · #8 Jan 27, '07, 10:02 am

ISAIAH 22: 20-22

Quote:

On that day I will summon my servant Eliakim, son of Hilkiah; I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.

Peter, being the Prime Minister, while the King, Jesus, is away.

Matthew 16:18:

Quote:

Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

REVELATIONS 3:7

Quote:

To the angel of the church in Philadelphia, write this: " 'The holy one, the true, who holds the key of David, who opens and no one shall close, who closes and no one shall open, says this…

Fredricks · #9 Jan 27, '07, 10:08 am

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truthstalker

I am stunned, reading thing, feeling like a current is pulling me out into the Catholic sea. What good news would it have been if the apostles could forgive sins, if the church could do it in that generation, but no one could in any succeeding generation? The church still has the power, insists on it, to discipline its members, regardless of denomination.

You are all over the place and I am not sure of what you are saying.
Are you saying that every generation has the exact same authority as the Apostles? That priests or pastors have the same gifts of the Apostles? You then go to discipline. Quite hard to follow.

Quote:

It is not a leap to see new apostles taking the place of others: look at Acts 1 as a model. It is not a leap to say that there could be successors (Jesus promised to be with us to the end of the age, not just until John, last of the 12, died). The apostles did not transfer the power, for the power was Christ's. as was the choice. We see this modeled in Acts 1. The leadership of the church must continue. Paul, Timothy and Titus ran around installing elders using apostolic authority, that is, with authority granted by God. It is NOT human but divine authority.

Apostles, yes. But they did not get their apostolic authority from the apostles truthstalker.

Quote:

Please tell me, on the other hand, where in Scripture anyone is commanded to gather up four Gospels and the apostolic letters and the book of Acts into one document. It's not there. By the argument that only things that are in Scripture should be done, it is then wrong to have a Bible

Goodness young man, have we gone over to the canon debate. IF you have teachings of Christ that come from somewhere other than the gospels that can be proven to come from Christ, present them. I am not opposed to all forms of tradition. YOur responses are all over the place. I cannot possibly address them all.

Randy Carson · #10 Jan 27, '07, 10:23 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fredricks

Are you saying that every generation has the exact same authority as the Apostles? That priests or pastors have the same gifts of the Apostles?

They did not get their apostolic authority from the apostles truthstalker.

Four generations of believers are illustrated in this one verse:

2 Timothy 2:1-2
You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.

1. Paul
2. Timothy
3. Those Timothy would "entrust'
4. Those whom these reliable men would teach

At least three of these "generations" are in leadership positions responsible for teaching others. That is Apostolic Succession at work.

In order to teach effectively, they would have to have the same Authority - the Apostolic Authority - of Jesus Christ.

The teachings and the authority of Jesus were handed on.

Fredricks · #11 Jan 27, '07, 10:27 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Carson

Four generations of believers are illustrated in this one verse:

2 Timothy 2:1-2
You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.

1. Paul
2. Timothy
3. Those Timothy would "entrust'
4. Those whom these reliable men would teach

At least three of these "generations" are in leadership positions responsible for teaching others. That is Apostolic Succession at work.

In order to teach effectively, they would have to have the same Authority - the Apostolic Authority - of Jesus Christ.

The teachings and the authority of Jesus were handed on.

Randy
Read my other response. Paul did not have hands laid on him by an apostle!
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=130789

Randy Carson · #12 Jan 27, '07, 10:31 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truthstalker

I am stunned, reading thing, feeling like a current is pulling me out into the Catholic sea. What good news would it have been if the apostles could forgive sins, if the church could do it in that generation, but no one could in any succeeding generation? The church still has the power, insists on it, to discipline its members, regardless of denomination.

It is not a leap to see new apostles taking the place of others: look at Acts 1 as a model. It is not a leap to say that there could be successors (Jesus promised to be with us to the end of the age, not just until John, last of the 12, died). The apostles did not transfer the power, for the power was Christ's. as was the choice. We see this modeled in Acts 1. The leadership of the church must continue. Paul, Timothy and Titus ran around installing elders using apostolic authority, that is, with authority granted by God. It is NOT human but divine authority.

Please tell me, on the other hand, where in Scripture anyone is commanded to gather up four Gospels and the apostolic letters and the book of Acts into one document. It's not there. By the argument that only things that are in Scripture should be done, it is then wrong to have a Bible.

“All authority” comes from God. This authority was given by God the Father to Jesus who, in turn, gave it to His disciples. He gave them “all authority” to “make disciples of all nations”. We also see another example of the authority given to the Apostles in the Gospel of John:

“Again Jesus said, ‘Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.’ And with that he breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.’ " (John 20:21-23)

From this passage, we see again that Jesus said, “as the Father has sent me (with all authority in heaven and on earth), so “I am sending you” with all of that exact same authority. Note further that Jesus has given the Apostles the authority to forgive men’s sins. Yet, as the Jews asked on another occasion:

“Who can forgive sins but God alone?” (Mark 5:5)

But Jesus knew their thoughts and asked:

"Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home." And the man got up and went home. When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.” (Matthew 9:4-8)

Notice that the Jews did not praise God who had “given such authority to a man” – a single man named Jesus. Instead, they praised God because the authority to forgive sins has now been passed into the hands of mankind. Moreover, with this kind of authority firmly conveyed to them, the Apostles spoke with the authority of Jesus Christ Himself. This was confirmed when Jesus said,

"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." (Luke 10:16)

Randy Carson · #13 Jan 27, '07, 10:39 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fredricks

The leap is that the Apostles transferred or could transfer this authority to others.

Jesus established an authoritative church and that the authority was Apostolic in nature. Further, that church was infallible because of the promises Jesus made about sending the Holy Spirit to remain with the church forever. To answer the question of whether an apostolic church still exists, we need to begin by looking at Matthew to see just how closely the concepts of authority, infallibility and apostolic succession are tied together.

“Then Jesus came to them and said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.’ “ (Matthew 28:18-19)

First, notice in the passage known as the “Great Commission”, that the Apostles were commanded to make disciples of “all nations”. How would it have been possible for these Eleven men to travel to every country on earth at a time when travel was slow and difficult? Given that the last of the Apostles died no more than 60 years or so after the Ascension of Jesus, would there have been time for them to physically visit every nation on earth to fulfill His command? No! Clearly, the instruction of Jesus only makes sense if it was given to the Apostles and those who would take the place of the Apostles after their deaths. Those who took the place of the Apostles would have to have the same Apostolic Authority given to the Apostles handed down to them. Thus, the “Great Commission” would be fulfilled over time through the missionary efforts of a greatly expanded Church.

“But wait,” some will say, “this only applies to the original Apostles while they were still alive. After the death of the last Apostle, we have the Bible.” Let’s examine further what Jesus said:

"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.” (John 14:16-17)

Does it make sense for Jesus to say “forever” if He anticipated that the Holy Spirit would depart from the church with the death of the last Apostle? No! The Spirit would remain with the Apostles and, through those who succeeded them, with the church forever. As we saw earlier, he also said,

“And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Matthew 28:18-19)

How could He fulfill this promise if the disciples themselves did not live until the end of the age? Again, how could Jesus remain with the church until the end of the age if the Apostolic Authority of the church ended with the death of the last Apostle? Clearly, Jesus must have intended that the apostles would be succeeded by other men who are still with us and will live until the end of the age. Jesus can be with the Apostles through their successors who also have the same Apostolic Authority by means of Apostolic Succession.

It is through the office of Apostle, and not through the individual Apostles themselves, that Jesus established and maintains His authority in the Church. Let us consider the Word of God:

“Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers” (1 Corinthians 12:28)

From this, we can see that God established the position of Apostle in the Church along with that of prophet and teacher among others. We saw earlier that Jesus did not command his disciples to “go, therefore, write books, and let everyone decide for themselves what is true”. No! The mission of the Apostles, the mission of the Church, was to teach, to make disciples of all nations, to baptize, etc. Making disciples of all nations would take time. Therefore, God established the office of Apostle in the church, but He never says anything about this being for the first couple of centuries only. He never says “until you can get the New Testament written and canonized.” The Church is still with us, so there must still be Apostles in the Church of Jesus Christ, and these current apostles must still have the same authority that was entrusted to the original Twelve and passed down as was noted earlier. This is called, “Apostolic Succession.”