Karl Keating's E-Letter of February 6, 2007

[Gregory Solman]

Especially when it comes to discussing Traditional Catholics (I am one) in this context, a distinction should be made between anti-Semitism as we commonly use the term today and a sort of Catholic religious orthodoxy which while recognizing the ontological roots of Catholicism in Judaism--and enjoying the far more obvious vestiges of ancient Jewish worship in the Latin Mass--nonetheless vociferously argues Catholicism as the Truth.

I know more than a few nominal or lukewarm Catholics who tend toward modern indifferentism. They don't care enough about the faith to want to argue its truth claims to Jews, to Muslims, to Protestants, to anyone. So they mistake traditional Catholic arguments for the truth of oujr faith as being arrogant, uncharitable, and lacking ecumenistic accomodation.

I'm very suspicious of those who accuse traditional Catholics of anti-Semitism in the common sense. In a fairly exhaustive study I've made of the accusations against Pius XII, for example, many of the charges of anti-Semitism slung as a brickbat at a Pope who was in every respect the antithesis came from people outside the Church who didn't understand (or willfully misinterpreted) truth claims of the Church regarding the Messiah as argued against Judaic theological thought. This is a form of what might be called religious or theological anti-Judaism that's quite distinct from common prejudice against Jews. Or, put simply, the Church is right, after all. Many modern Catholics bristle at that sort of statement (whereas in Pius XII's day Catholics were unashamed to defend the Church as the Truth, not a truth). But do they suppose that the Church is wrong, or (more likely) that everyone's right? Remember, if everyone is right, than nothing is necessary.

We must bear in mind that Judaism still awaits a Messiah who has already come. And we believe they are essentially wrong. It is not anti-Semitic to proclaim that.

[chosen people]

Originally Posted by Gregory Solman

Especially when it comes to discussing Traditional Catholics (I am one) in this context, a distinction should be made between anti-Semitism as we commonly use the term today and a sort of Catholic religious orthodoxy which while recognizing the ontological roots of Catholicism in Judaism--and enjoying the far more obvious vestiges of ancient Jewish worship in the Latin Mass--nonetheless vociferously argues Catholicism as the Truth.

I know more than a few nominal or lukewarm Catholics who tend toward modern indifferentism. They don't care enough about the faith to want to argue its truth claims to Jews, to Muslims, to Protestants, to anyone. So they mistake traditional Catholic arguments for the truth of oujr faith as being arrogant, uncharitable, and lacking ecumenistic accomodation.

I'm very suspicious of those who accuse traditional Catholics of anti-Semitism in the common sense. In a fairly exhaustive study I've made of the accusations against Pius XII, for example, many of the charges of anti-Semitism slung as a brickbat at a Pope who was in every respect the antithesis came from people outside the Church who didn't understand (or willfully misinterpreted) truth claims of the Church regarding the Messiah as argued against Judaic theological thought. This is a form of what might be called religious or theological anti-Judaism that's quite distinct from common prejudice against Jews. Or, put simply, the Church is right, after all. Many modern Catholics bristle at that sort of statement (whereas in Pius XII's day Catholics were unashamed to defend the Church as the Truth, not a truth). But do they suppose that the Church is wrong, or (more likely) that everyone's right? Remember, if everyone is right, than nothing is necessary.

We must bear in mind that Judaism still awaits a Messiah who has already come. And we believe they are essentially wrong. It is not anti-Semitic to proclaim that.

I am not arguing theology. I know Catholicism believes it is the one true religion. This belief automatically means that from a Catholic perspective Judaism is wrong. That is not of and by itself "antisemitism". It requires using those beliefs to give manifestation to antisemitic acts to become antisemitism. We don't have to believe that the other religion is also true. What we do have to do is act with tolerance and respect towards people that hold differing beliefs.

My government has praised the actions of Pius XII during the holocaust in saving Jews. My own personal opinion is that from a practical side even had the Pope spoken openly against the persecution of Jews it probably would have had liitle effect (witness the lack of effect of the Catholic clergy in Holland who were extremely vocal).

To understand what I'm talking about go to Pius IX (who is the darling of Traditional Catholics) and study his actions against the Jews.

[chosen people]

Originally Posted by Kristopher

Sigmund Freud furthered our inclusion in the animal kingdom with a very useful assessment of three essential elements to the exclusion of the fourth, the image of God, with respect to human behavior, human personality: the Id, the Ego, and the Superego—the Id being rooted in the Pleasure Principle, that a human body will move away from pain, toward pleasure: when cold, it will seek warmth; when hot, it will seek shade. The Ego being the element we very often despise when out of proper proportion across the span of human development is the part of human behavior testing the limits of the Pleasure Principle, and of the Superego. The Superego are the rules, the laws, the norms of a society, of a civilization, of a culture that keep the Ego further limited in “its” behavior, for lack of being able to find another identity attributed with the function of testing. Though this might not be a direct willful attack against Catholicism, it is very definitely destructive to Catholicism to the extent that it does give cause to sink further into materialism, or into the developments of eugenics and abortion, as it exists today.

What reason is there to lay claim to the whole of Catholicism being guilty of anti-Semitisim? Hitler persecuted Catholics. Many Catholics were directly sentenced to death by Hitler’s orders. Many clergy members challenged the anti-Semitism of Hitler, and lost their lives as a consequence.

Judaism among modern American politicians has done what to lessen attacks against Catholicism; has it furthered persecution against Catholicism with the invention of hate crimes against homosexuality on the basis, of what Hitler and perhaps even Margaret Sanger, sanctioned against homosexuals. Senator Lieberman might be an example of this. We practice tolerance as a consequence of the horrors of World War II (WWII) to such an extreme extent, that we have legislated many Catholics out of opportunities to practice their faith, and to develop within Catholics, young and old alike, a complex that they are somehow inferior for recognizing homosexuality as a disorder of the human reproductive system.

In anycase, there is reason to claim Catholicism and Judaism as corrupt and destructive toward humanity; though, it would be unfair: given the opportunities to love, to serve God available through both Judaism, and Catholicism. Is Jesus Christ the Messiah?

What have Jews done to support a reasonable answer to this question? Judaism during Christ’s life, the subsequent events after his death, and his Resurrection were thwarted by Pharisees, Jews. The entire Septuagint, a translation by apparently the finest scholars, six from each of the twelve tribes of Judea commissioned by Alexander the Great, from the Hebrew to the Greek was very much discredited, unreasonably so, by Pharisitic Jews, to the extent that we even to this day have many Christians running around practicing the teachings of “their” Bible as though it were what Jesus himself had used, when it is anything else but this: it is in fact the scriptures used by those whom we know most directly persecuted, and influenced the Roman government very directly to have Jesus crucified. This is not anti-Semitic, but clearly a division, long-standing, among Jews of Jesus’ day, and perhaps even prior to his time—it seems believable that not all Jews accepted the scholarly works of six scholars from each of the twelve tribes, commissioned by Alexander the Great, but this may be moot.

Kristopher shalom

You forgot to include two good Roman Catholics whose scientific research also undermined the Roman Catholic Church - Copernicus and Galileo and their "heretical" claim that the earth was not the center of the universe and that the earth rotated around the sun.

You also forgot to include another non Jew, Charles Darwin, whose theories on evolution undermined biblical creation.

Einstien and Freud, two Jews, one the creator of the theory of relativity the other the father of modern pschoanalysis; do you believe that they or any of the above people were motivated in their scientific research and formulation of ideas with the sole purpose of undermining Roman Catholic doctrine?

What is the connection between what you wrote and institutionalised Catholic Church persecution of the Jews. Do Freud's theories, because he was a Jew, even though his theories are not concerned with Catholicism, somehow balance the scales of two millenium of pesecution?

I'm not sure what you're doing here. Are you trying to justify antisemitism against the Jews by the Catholic Church or are you expressing a personal wish to return to the good old days when the Catholic Church was the dominant force in the civilized wordl? Historians have a term for that period in history. Its called "the dark ages".

[Gregory Solman]

Originally Posted by chosen people

I am not arguing theology.

Well, with all due respect, I was, though I hasten to add that I was responding to Karl's letter, not to the long string above my post. Perhaps because I'm new to the forum I implied otherwise (sorry) when in fact I was neither attacking nor affirming your positions. In any case, I have little interest in weighing in on the historical-grievances part of the string. I was simply pointing out that when a group like SPLC attacks traditional Catholics in particular as anti-Semitic it is sometimes a pretext for attacking those who really, strongly believe in the Faith and are willing to defend it theologically, unlike milquetoast Easter-and-Christmas Catholics; the SPLC is not attacking them because lukewarm belief is no threat to anyone, and in fact unintentionally supports secular atheism.

I know Catholicism believes it is the one true religion. This belief automatically means that from a Catholic perspective Judaism is wrong.

Surely you don't mean to imply that Judaism does not consider itself also right. At least the rabbis I know would disagree. If you believe that it is possible that Jesus is the Messiah, then come home to God's Church! We have no doubt that He is the suffering servant you will find in the writings of the prophet Isaias and elsewhere in the Old Testament.

That is not of and by itself "antisemitism." It requires using those beliefs to give manifestation to antisemitic acts to become antisemitism. We don't have to believe that the other religion is also true. What we do have to do is act with tolerance and respect towards people that hold differing beliefs.

Reread my post and will see that here we agree here.

My government has praised the actions of Pius XII during the holocaust in saving Jews. My own personal opinion is that from a practical side even had the Pope spoken openly against the persecution of Jews it probably would have had liitle effect (witness the lack of effect of the Catholic clergy in Holland who were extremely vocal).

To understand what I'm talking about go to Pius IX (who is the darling of Traditional Catholics) and study his actions against the Jews.

Again, I won't be dragged into the historical grievance string. It is becomes counterproductive to caritas, and in my experience always ends up in cyber-screaming. Following the council of John-Paul the Great, I will not spend my time refuting every claim, but simply try to speak the truth, confident that Grace follows the truth.

Please be careful about assuming that Pius IX is the darling of people who call themselves Traditional Catholics.Perhaps you are lumping together all Old Catholics, Lefevrists and sede-vacantists of all stripes, many of whom are at best schismatic. That grouping does not include traditional Catholics such as me who define themselves as traditional because we reject modern liturgical innovation, adhere to all of the Church teachings--unlike modern Catholics who pick and choose doctrines--and are often attached to the indult Latin Mass.

God bless you and thank you for the response.

[chosen people]

Originally Posted by Gregory Solman

Again, I won't be dragged into the historical grievance string. It is becomes counterproductive to caritas, and in my experience always ends up in cyber-screaming. Following the council of John-Paul the Great, I will not spend my time refuting every claim, but simply try to speak the truth, confident that Grace follows the truth.


God bless you and thank you for the response.

Judaism tolerates and respects the beliefs of other religions. According to Judaism it is actually easier for a non Jew to get into the world to come.

"According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come."

Good news on all counts. First, in Judaism there are no everlasting burning flames of Hell. Secondly, even if we did believe that such a place existed we wouldn't believe that non Jews are sent there for the "sin" of not believing what we believe. Thirdly, according to Jewish belief you as a good Catholic, when your time comes, are on your way to heaven.

Do I believe that the Jewish attitude to other faiths is the right one? Absolutely.

[Kristopher]

Dear Chosen People,

I am not familiar enough with Catholic history to refute collectively, or in part, all of those quotes across the history of the Catholic Church, that you have cited in a previous thread regarding the SSPX and anti-Semitism: I read through much of what you wrote, to gain the point of your writing as best I could do for myself.

I would appreciate it if you would please visit the following URL:

http://vatican.mondosearch.com/cgi-b...hiword=Jews%20

and tell me--what do you think of this? I am uncertain of your claim, that Catholicism has in fact ever institutionalized "anti-Semitism"; it would seem all else to the contrary is true, though it must be seen clearly that Christians have blamed the Jews for much, inclusive of Jesus' death, evidenced by the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), paragraph 598: " ... The Church does not hesitate to impute to Christians the gravest responsiblity for the torments inflicted upon Jesus, a responsibility with which they have all too often burdened the Jews alone: ... ". The word "Christians" is used inclusive of Catholics, I suspect, though it is certainly true in my experience, that many other Christians outside Catholics have been guilty of blaming Jews. For many years within the early Church there was no separation between Catholics, and Jews.

While the topic you have raised is whatever you define as the "institutionalization" of anti-Semitism in opposition against Jews, the claim would be unsubstantiated in todays terms evidenced by clearly institutionalized efforts by the Church to communicate, and state as necessary, our relationship to the Jews, with the Jews. There is a Jew, that converted to Catholicism in a fairly modern videotape who drew similarities between Judaic and Catholic practices, not surprisingly given the origin of the one in the other, but this you might void as off the topic that you raised; nonetheless, it is for you to demonstrate that Catholicism has in fact "institutionalized" anti-Semitism. The Catholic Church has laid claim to the fact, that it has never done this, evidenced by paragraph 598: " ... the Church has never forgotten that 'sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured.' Taking into account the fact that our sins affect Christ himself, ... ". It is of course for myself, and other Catholics to refute your claim.

I think it worth acknowledging, that Jews organized against Catholicism, such as Dr. Bernard N. Nathanson as a founding member of the National Association for the Reform of Abortion Laws (NARAL), does in fact demonstrate a greater tragedy, a greater horror against Catholicism, that is more destructive in terms of actual lives lost due to violence, and persecution in a greater excess than what any Catholic, alive or dead in the Church to be debated--no doubt--will perhaps never be equaled across any two, or three millenia since Anno Domini, A.D. originated with only the past three, nearly four decades to serve as evidence of this claim.

You may view, and search http://www.vatican.va for evidence to refute your claim, that the Catholic Church has collectively done nothing in one motivated effort to denounce anti-Semitism; please use the word "Judaisim" as your search term. You might also view this webpage as it concerns relations with Judaism among Catholics:

http://vatican.mondosearch.com/cgi-b...ord=Judaism%20

This other link should address the anti-Semitism within Catholicism as well:

http://vatican.mondosearch.com/cgi-b...ord=Judaism%20

Take cares!

Most sincerely,



Kristopher

[Gregory Solman]

Originally Posted by chosen people

Judaism tolerates and respects the beliefs of other religions. According to Judaism it is actually easier for a non Jew to get into the world to come.

"According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come."

Good news on all counts. First, in Judaism there are no everlasting burning flames of Hell. Secondly, even if we did believe that such a place existed we wouldn't believe that non Jews are sent there for the "sin" of not believing what we believe. Thirdly, according to Jewish belief you as a good Catholic, when your time comes, are on your way to heaven.

Do I believe that the Jewish attitude to other faiths is the right one? Absolutely.

Certainly good news, especially in that Noahide laws are the reason that Jews are Catholics greatest allies in the war against the crime of abortion.

But it is my understanding that Jews do believe (or once believed) in Sheol, often translated as Hell but more properly referred to as the place of the dead. Those there awaited the redeemer, and even though both the righteous and evil are there, all were deprived of the beatific vision. To quote the Catechism (CCC 633), Sheol as a place for both the righteous and evil dead "does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was recieved into 'Abraham's bosom.' " It is those righteous in Sheol whom our Lord, the Messiah, delivered. No Catholic could ignore that teaching any more than the Transfiguration of our Lord when He was seen by the apostles along side the spirits of Elias and Moses. We don't suppose that Elias and Moses were on a weekend parole from eternal damnation.

Indeed, this is the essense of the very poorly understood teaching, extra ecclesia nola salus, "No salvation outside of the Church." Even the righteous from other faiths enter into heaven by the one Mediator, by the Grace of the Messiah's salvific power (the Head) and His Church (the Body), regardless of whether they are aware of it or not.

Even if you speak for all Jewry (and, I must ask, is there a uniformity of belief among all Jews in the world in the beliefs you outlined above?), your comment does not contradict my claim for the truth of Catholicism. First, the Church teaches that God's covenant with the Jews was never revoked, and we, too, follow Mosaic law. Furthermore, the mark of a Church's truth claims is not its capacity for modern ideas of tolerance--otherwise the religiously indifferent attitude that no one, good or evil, is called to account for his actions in the afterlife, would seem more tolerant still than Judaism or Catholicism. For what could be less judgmental than disbelief in a judge or a judgment?

That being said, because your comment that Judaism's "attitude toward other faiths" implies greater tolerance than the Church, you should know that the Church likewise teaches that non-Catholics may be saved and that God gives every man He creates the Grace necessary to be saved. CCC 847: "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience--those too may achieve eternal salvation."

If you were to point out the similarity of your Jewish belief and Catholicism on that point of soteriology, I would say it is entirely not coincidental. God bless us all!

[mscamp]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth

The SPLC report uses the words 'catholic extremists' with respect to anti-Semites.

It suggests that if you take catholicism to its extreme, you end up with anti-semitism.

NOT the case. Anti-Semitism is not catholicsm in the extreme: It is pathological within our faith and against all that Jesus teaches. It is hatred of Jesus himself.

Extreme catholicism is orthodoxy and that's a GOOD thing.

Very well put.

[chosen people]

Originally Posted by Gregory Solman

Certainly good news, especially in that Noahide laws are the reason that Jews are Catholics greatest allies in the war against the crime of abortion.

But it is my understanding that Jews do believe (or once believed) in Sheol, often translated as Hell but more properly referred to as the place of the dead. Those there awaited the redeemer, and even though both the righteous and evil are there, all were deprived of the beatific vision. To quote the Catechism (CCC 633), Sheol as a place for both the righteous and evil dead "does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was recieved into 'Abraham's bosom.' " It is those righteous in Sheol whom our Lord, the Messiah, delivered. No Catholic could ignore that teaching any more than the Transfiguration of our Lord when He was seen by the apostles along side the spirits of Elias and Moses. We don't suppose that Elias and Moses were on a weekend parole from eternal damnation.

Indeed, this is the essense of the very poorly understood teaching, extra ecclesia nola salus, "No salvation outside of the Church." Even the righteous from other faiths enter into heaven by the one Mediator, by the Grace of the Messiah's salvific power (the Head) and His Church (the Body), regardless of whether they are aware of it or not.

Even if you speak for all Jewry (and, I must ask, is there a uniformity of belief among all Jews in the world in the beliefs you outlined above?), your comment does not contradict my claim for the truth of Catholicism. First, the Church teaches that God's covenant with the Jews was never revoked, and we, too, follow Mosaic law. Furthermore, the mark of a Church's truth claims is not its capacity for modern ideas of tolerance--otherwise the religiously indifferent attitude that no one, good or evil, is called to account for his actions in the afterlife, would seem more tolerant still than Judaism or Catholicism. For what could be less judgmental than disbelief in a judge or a judgment?

That being said, because your comment that Judaism's "attitude toward other faiths" implies greater tolerance than the Church, you should know that the Church likewise teaches that non-Catholics may be saved and that God gives every man He creates the Grace necessary to be saved. CCC 847: "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience--those too may achieve eternal salvation."

If you were to point out the similarity of your Jewish belief and Catholicism on that point of soteriology, I would say it is entirely not coincidental. God bless us all!

several comments:

If you were not trying to be facetious orthodox Jewry is against abortion.

The Catholic take on the afterlife is obviously not relevant concerning Jewish attitudes towards non Jews.

My comments about the Noahide commandments may be found on any Jewish website explaining about Judaism.

To the best of my knowledge I have never made a comment on this thread or any other thread on this forum "to contradict" a claim for the "truth of Catholicism". Your beliefs concerning Yehoshua bar Yosef are yours to hold and will always be respected by me.

It was perhaps unfair of me to imply that Judaism's tolerance towards Catholicism is much greater than Catholicism's tolerance towards Judaism. In fact the Catholic Church even has a special word for "tolerance towards Judaism", the word
"inquisition".

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Genesis 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all nations of the earth be blessed."

[chosen people]

Originally Posted by Kristopher

Dear Chosen People,

I am not familiar enough with Catholic history to refute collectively, or in part, all of those quotes across the history of the Catholic Church, that you have cited in a previous thread regarding the SSPX and anti-Semitism: I read through much of what you wrote, to gain the point of your writing as best I could do for myself.

I would appreciate it if you would please visit the following URL:

http://vatican.mondosearch.com/cgi-b...hiword=Jews%20

and tell me--what do you think of this? I am uncertain of your claim, that Catholicism has in fact ever institutionalized "anti-Semitism"; it would seem all else to the contrary is true, though it must be seen clearly that Christians have blamed the Jews for much, inclusive of Jesus' death, evidenced by the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), paragraph 598: " ... The Church does not hesitate to impute to Christians the gravest responsiblity for the torments inflicted upon Jesus, a responsibility with which they have all too often burdened the Jews alone: ... ". The word "Christians" is used inclusive of Catholics, I suspect, though it is certainly true in my experience, that many other Christians outside Catholics have been guilty of blaming Jews. For many years within the early Church there was no separation between Catholics, and Jews.

While the topic you have raised is whatever you define as the "institutionalization" of anti-Semitism in opposition against Jews, the claim would be unsubstantiated in todays terms evidenced by clearly institutionalized efforts by the Church to communicate, and state as necessary, our relationship to the Jews, with the Jews. There is a Jew, that converted to Catholicism in a fairly modern videotape who drew similarities between Judaic and Catholic practices, not surprisingly given the origin of the one in the other, but this you might void as off the topic that you raised; nonetheless, it is for you to demonstrate that Catholicism has in fact "institutionalized" anti-Semitism. The Catholic Church has laid claim to the fact, that it has never done this, evidenced by paragraph 598: " ... the Church has never forgotten that 'sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured.' Taking into account the fact that our sins affect Christ himself, ... ". It is of course for myself, and other Catholics to refute your claim.

I think it worth acknowledging, that Jews organized against Catholicism, such as Dr. Bernard N. Nathanson as a founding member of the National Association for the Reform of Abortion Laws (NARAL), does in fact demonstrate a greater tragedy, a greater horror against Catholicism, that is more destructive in terms of actual lives lost due to violence, and persecution in a greater excess than what any Catholic, alive or dead in the Church to be debated--no doubt--will perhaps never be equaled across any two, or three millenia since Anno Domini, A.D. originated with only the past three, nearly four decades to serve as evidence of this claim.

You may view, and search http://www.vatican.va for evidence to refute your claim, that the Catholic Church has collectively done nothing in one motivated effort to denounce anti-Semitism; please use the word "Judaisim" as your search term. You might also view this webpage as it concerns relations with Judaism among Catholics:

http://vatican.mondosearch.com/cgi-b...ord=Judaism%20

This other link should address the anti-Semitism within Catholicism as well:

http://vatican.mondosearch.com/cgi-b...ord=Judaism%20

Take cares!

Most sincerely,



Kristopher

Dear Kristopher

You are a proud Catholic and I have not the slightest doubt that you don't have an antisemitic bone in your body.

However, with your earlier comments on Freud and your comments here on Dr. Nathanson your are sliding down the slippery path of "Jewish Naturalism" of Denis Fahey and the Jews and evolutionary psycholgy of Kevin Macdonald.

If you don't know about these people, both Roman Catholics,
you should read
http://www.slate.com/id/1004446/
and
http://www.crisismagazine.com/december2002/feature5.htm

I'd be interested in your comments.

Shalom and God bless

[Cam-masta]

Dear Chosen people,

From reading these posts, I feel you are using a double standard in your idea of tolerence for other religions. Catholics make up over 1 billion of the world's population, and yet you have made some very serious allegations against the Church and thus, against the faithful who adhere to Her teaching. Many have answered, and in charity might I add, to these accusations, yet you seem to be very dissatisfied, negatively accusing the Church, as though She were some horrid monster out to plot against Jewish people. What of those Jews who converted to Catholicism? Are they now part of this horrible persecuting Church? Or could it be, that they believe they have found the fullness of truth as Catholics, both through research and faithful witness of other believers. Indeed, something to ponder.

Have there been unwise leaders in the Church, who have done horrible things? Of course! All of humanity is sinfull regardless of religious affiliation. That doesn't mean, however, that the Sacred Deposit of the Faith, being Doctrine, is corrupt and against humanity, for the Bride (Church) received it from Her Bridegroom (Christ), and Jesus Christ is God the Son, and I think we both agree that God is infallible. We have an obvious dispute, however with Christ being God (Second Divine Person of the Trinity), but that is for another thread.

By the way, I am against anti-Semitic bigotry and quit a potential full time job due to a Fundamentalist Muslim's virulent statements about the Shoa etc, so I'd kindly ask that you don't suspect me of anti-Semitism, as prominent as it is in the world. God Bless you.

Cameron

[chosen people]

Originally Posted by Cam-masta

Dear Chosen people,

From reading these posts, I feel you are using a double standard in your idea of tolerence for other religions. Catholics make up over 1 billion of the world's population, and yet you have made some very serious allegations against the Church and thus, against the faithful who adhere to Her teaching. Many have answered, and in charity might I add, to these accusations, yet you seem to be very dissatisfied, negatively accusing the Church, as though She were some horrid monster out to plot against Jewish people. What of those Jews who converted to Catholicism? Are they now part of this horrible persecuting Church? Or could it be, that they believe they have found the fullness of truth as Catholics, both through research and faithful witness of other believers. Indeed, something to ponder.

Have there been unwise leaders in the Church, who have done horrible things? Of course! All of humanity is sinfull regardless of religious affiliation. That doesn't mean, however, that the Sacred Deposit of the Faith, being Doctrine, is corrupt and against humanity, for the Bride (Church) received it from Her Bridegroom (Christ), and Jesus Christ is God the Son, and I think we both agree that God is infallible. We have an obvious dispute, however with Christ being God (Second Divine Person of the Trinity), but that is for another thread.

By the way, I am against anti-Semitic bigotry and quit a potential full time job due to a Fundamentalist Muslim's virulent statements about the Shoa etc, so I'd kindly ask that you don't suspect me of anti-Semitism, as prominent as it is in the world. God Bless you.

Cameron

As a good Catholic free from antisemitism could you please help me to explain to Keating and others here why the kidnapping of Edgaro Mortara from his family forever in order to bring him up "properly" was a dispicable act.

Shalom and God bless

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Genesis 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall al nations of the earth be blessed."

[mscamp]

Originally Posted by chosen people

I am here for a strictly egotistical reason. It is I who wish to be eventually able to forgive you and all Catholics.

Gee...I hope that works out for you.

Peace Be With You.

[chosen people]

Originally Posted by mscamp

Gee...I hope that works out for you.

Peace Be With You.

Between 1933 - 1945 Nazi Germany pesecuted the Jews. .

All German school children learn about this black period in German history.

Following the war German leader apologized to the Jewish people.

German school children are not taught: it happened in the past and is not relevant to us today since we are not Nazis.

They are not taught: The German government apologized and so ends the matter.

They are definitely not taught to explain and justify the persecution of the Jews in this period.

They no doubt learn that the Nazi's forced expulsions of the Jews, placing them in ghettoes, stripping them of all civil and legal rights and making them wear a yellow star to distinguish themselves from the rest of the population were infact merely Catholic Church edicts (see for instance Pope Pius IX).

So when Catholics on this forum tell me that "all that persecution was in the past we have no need to learn of it and it is irrelevant to us today since we are not antisemites"; when they say that "the Church apologized and so ends the matter"; when they justify the persecution of the Jews or make claims that the Jews brought it on themselves; when two of the major forces of modern antisemitism are Roman Catholic ( Father Denis Fahey and Kevin Macdonald) forgive me if I too roll my eyes!

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Genesis 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all nations of the earth be blessed."

[qmvsimp]

Originally Posted by chosen people

So when Catholics on this forum tell me that "all that persecution was in the past we have no need to learn of it and it is irrelevant to us today since we are not antisemites"; when they say that "the Church apologized and so ends the matter"; when they justify the persecution of the Jews or make claims that the Jews brought it on themselves; when two of the major forces of modern antisemitism are Roman Catholic ( Father Denis Fahey and Kevin Macdonald) forgive me if I too roll my eyes!

Just as I'm rolling my eyes at your double standard. Dr. Nathanson and Karl Marx were Jewish, but you dismiss their sins since it wasn't "institutionalized," yet Fahey and MacDonalds proclaimations aren't institutionalized either.

It's amazing how someone uses bigotry to denounce other bigotry.