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  #1  
Old Aug 30, '04, 9:21 pm
Archbishop 10-K Archbishop 10-K is offline
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Default Paul superior to Peter?

Quote:
"Protestantism was the triumph of Paul over Peter, fundamentalism is the triumph of Paul over Christ." - Will Durant
Has anyone noticed how, since the Reformation, St. Peter's role has been seriously downplayed in favor of St. Paul's? I mean, I was hearing a sermon recently from a non-Catholic about how Paul didn't need to be ordained by anyone but God Himself, how Paul rebuked Peter and a bunch of other church leaders for hypocrisy, how Paul was the leader of the church, Paul this, Paul that, and Peter becomes weak in faith like a pebble. What's up with that? Paul wasn't even in the gospels and never actually lived with Jesus.
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  #2  
Old Aug 30, '04, 9:39 pm
flick427 flick427 is offline
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Default Re: Paul superior to Peter?

I just think St. Paul spoke up more. I wouldn't say that Paul "rebuking" Peter meant that Peter was less of a leader. Perhaps Peter was a little more reserved and Paul was just more of the preaching type..."there are many parts, we are all one body"

Peter may have even had to correct Paul many times...but I doubt Paul would write about it. Think of it this way, if you won a debate, you would probably be happy and tell your friends, if you lost, you are not very likely to tell them because it may be a little embarassing...just becaue they are saints, doesn't mean they always took things the best way, or didn't make mistakes.
Paul may have been a better preacher, and Peter a better leader (which is why he was Pope)...Personally, My boss is not always right about things we tell him, but I know that he has much better leadership qualities than I do while I know more about the job...we have to work as a team. Perhaps Jesus chose Peter simply because of certain traits he has that Paul didn't have but could make up for elsewhere.

Perhaps a lot of Protestants fail to realize this because they don't see what St. Peter was all about. Paul wrote more and it was put in the Bible...Peter was busy doing other things.
I wonder if they ever stop to ask themselves why Paul was even arguing with Peter in the first place and why it was so important to write how Paul won the "debate"...couldn't Paul have just gone to another Apostle?...well, he (Paul) didn't...doesn't this illustrate to them that Peter was in some sort of position of authority?
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  #3  
Old Aug 30, '04, 9:57 pm
ND Mike ND Mike is offline
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Default Re: Paul superior to Peter?

In any corporation you have a CEO and managers underneath. The lower level managers are the ones that spend most of the time taking upper managements goals and finding ways to execute them. Many lower level managers also come up with many ideas on their own. These managers are the ones who talk to the employees and define these broad goals that the CEO or presidents set up. These managers are supposed to get their hands dirty and help get production and results from the employees.


Now think of the Church. If Peter was the leader he would teach the basic truths of the Church. However, he would not be able to go everywhere and deal with the problems the early Churches dealt with. That is where Paul comes in. Paul was like lower management. He is still respected and is extremely important. His job is to go to the people and help them learn them learn what God's message is. They already know the basic plan as it has been outlined by the leader Peter. However, the faithful need a more difinitive plan to comprehend and understand what the Church teaches. Paul starts this plan by teaching that we cannot earn salvation. Our salvation is a gift and that gift is accepted by faith. Paul explains that the first fundamental foundation for Christianity is faith.

However, it does not stop at just merely believing. For true faith is naturally expressed through our works. For like James says, "So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself." (James 2:17) We must understand that Paul was dealing with Christians who's faith was wandering. Paul realized that the first step to helping these people understand was to build faith. Once a sturdy foundation of faith is built everything else can be built on top. For a weak foundation will crumble in time.

Remember, Peter warns of the difficulty of understanding some of Paul's teachings. He also states that many will misinterpret this scripture along with other as well.

2Peter3:15-17
And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you:

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness.


That's just my , but I believe that is why Paul deals with the problems the early Churches of the Bible face.

Last edited by ND Mike; Aug 30, '04 at 10:09 pm.
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  #4  
Old Aug 30, '04, 11:14 pm
whowantsumadebo whowantsumadebo is offline
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Default Re: Paul superior to Peter?

I think Paul's role has been seriously overstated in modern times. He seems to be the easiest to misunderstand. At bookstores there are works on how Paul was actually the "leader of the christian church" and Peter and James were his enemies. It's pretty goofy. But this is real stuff being pushed on people interested in christian history. Its made up by people who don't like christianity and they need an evil genius to blame their discontent on. Paul was a controvertial figure in his own day. Alot of people in the earliest days didn't accept him as an apostle. He had to justify his position by noting that he had met with Peter and the others of the "first generation" and that he preached the same gospel as they did. I find it interesting that He never actually held any formal office, that I know of. Peter and Paul preached and founded churches in the same areas, as were other mysterious missionaries whose names have been lost to history. Paul has the honor of being the last biblical apostle called by Christ himself. He has gotten so much recognition because of the overwhelming number of letters we have of his in relation to other chuch founders.But the first Pope? Surely you jest. I like to play a game called "compare what Paul says with what the other books of the New Testament say" and "compare Paul with contemporary Judaism of the time". Paul comes out sounding Catholic to me.
Someday Debo will have some bible verses to compare.
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  #5  
Old Aug 30, '04, 11:23 pm
jeffreedy789 jeffreedy789 is offline
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Default Re: Paul superior to Peter?

coming from a protestant background, i can tell you that paul agrees with protestant theology much more readily than does peter, james, or even Jesus.

you find all kinds of verses that seem to say that works of any kind are unnecessary and that faith alone saves you in paul's writings. in fact, protestants (baptists in particular) have a plan of salvation called 'the roman road' in which you take a series of 5 to 7 verses from the book of romans and lead someone to say 'the sinner's prayer', in which a person confesses their sins (basically confesses THAT they have sinned) and that they want Jesus to save them. they 'ask Jesus into their heart' and are saved. the end. congrats. from here on out, it's just learning to be more like Jesus.

james says 'for you see that you are justified by what you do, and not by faith alone.' so you can see why some people who misinterpret paul to be sola fides, would think that james and paul were enemies.

protestantism must, by necessity, lean toward paul for one very simple reason - sola scriptura. much of what peter taught was carried on through the church, whereas paul wrote much of the new testament, almost all of the epistles. so anyone who rejects the Tradition of the church (a great portion of peter's teachings) and embraces only the Bible as an authority (largely paul's teachings) will lean toward paul as their 'father'.
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  #6  
Old Aug 31, '04, 1:30 am
Todd Easton Todd Easton is offline
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Default Re: Paul superior to Peter?

When Paul wanted to make sure he wasn't running or had run in vain he went to James, Cephas (Peter), and John and laid the Gospel he was preaching before them for their confirmation (Gal 2:1-10).
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  #7  
Old Aug 31, '04, 3:01 am
asquared asquared is offline
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Default Re: Paul superior to Peter?

I am waiting for the reply by the guy who thinks Paul is a heretic and his letters are non-canonical.

This story was told by an Episcopal bishop to a mixed group of students from all faiths, it is a Lutheran joke.
A good Lutheran dies and expects to be welcomed at the pearly gates, but is shocked and surprised to find himself going in the other door down below. The first person he meets is his pastor. "What happened," he asked, "why are we here? We have strong saving faith, we should be saved!"
"If you think that's crazy, wait until you see who else is down here," the pastor replied, and led the man over to where Martin Luther was standing. The pastor asked the great reformer why they were consigned to the nether regions, and Luther replied,
"You think that's crazy, you won't believe who else is down here," and led them further in and further down, to where St. Paul was wandering around, muttering wildly "It was works, it was works!"
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  #8  
Old Aug 31, '04, 3:35 am
francisca francisca is offline
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Default Re: Paul superior to Peter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by asquared
I am waiting for the reply by the guy who thinks Paul is a heretic and his letters are non-canonical.

This story was told by an Episcopal bishop to a mixed group of students from all faiths, it is a Lutheran joke.
A good Lutheran dies and expects to be welcomed at the pearly gates, but is shocked and surprised to find himself going in the other door down below. The first person he meets is his pastor. "What happened," he asked, "why are we here? We have strong saving faith, we should be saved!"
"If you think that's crazy, wait until you see who else is down here," the pastor replied, and led the man over to where Martin Luther was standing. The pastor asked the great reformer why they were consigned to the nether regions, and Luther replied,
"You think that's crazy, you won't believe who else is down here," and led them further in and further down, to where St. Paul was wandering around, muttering wildly "It was works, it was works!"
I thought the joke would go this way :

because "peter" was the one holding "the key", and later he "forgot" where he kept it...... then all of us got stuck in front of the "gate"..........
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Last edited by francisca; Aug 31, '04 at 3:47 am.
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  #9  
Old Aug 31, '04, 5:20 am
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Apologia100 Apologia100 is offline
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Default Re: Paul superior to Peter?

St. Paul is only a bigger deal than St. Peter OUTSIDE of Catholic circles. Since this is a Catholic forum, most of us submit to the chair of Peter, not the chair of Paul.
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  #10  
Old Aug 31, '04, 7:22 am
francisca francisca is offline
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Default Re: Paul superior to Peter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apologia100
St. Paul is only a bigger deal than St. Peter OUTSIDE of Catholic circles. Since this is a Catholic forum, most of us submit to the chair of Peter, not the chair of Paul.
Are you saying that Catholic circles "prefer" Peter's teachings over Paul's ?

I'm affraid that is not the case.

Luther's criticism was not totally baseless. We just have to deal with it with open mind. Vatican Council II lead us in this area : that there are new revelations happening in The Church, that The Church should remain open to the Holy Spirit guidance to bring continual renewal to The Church. We trust God in this area and trust our leaders in the Council who understand these things better than us.

Some opposition of the Council makes a lot of noise, being totally "ignorant" of the Bible, they shout "ignorace" the loudest.
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  #11  
Old Aug 31, '04, 7:40 am
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Apologia100 Apologia100 is offline
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Default Re: Paul superior to Peter?

Since those of St. Paul's and St. Peter's writings that are considered inspired are included in the canon of Scripture, both St. Peter and St. Paul's teachings are equally important. I am saying that in the Catholic worldview, St. Peter was the chief apostle, not St. Paul, and Paul himself submitted to Peter. Just because Paul "rebuked" Peter for his inconsistent behavior, it does not mean that Paul was superior to Peter, nor does it diminish Peter's role as the Chief Apostle. Good leaders always listen to the adminishments of other people, because any man that assumes he knows it all will soon find out that he doesn't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by francisca
Are you saying that Catholic circles "prefer" Peter's teachings over Paul's ?

I'm affraid that is not the case.

Luther's criticism was not totally baseless. We just have to deal with it with open mind. Vatican Council II lead us in this area : that there are new revelations happening in The Church, that The Church should remain open to the Holy Spirit guidance to bring continual renewal to The Church. We trust God in this area and trust our leaders in the Council who understand these things better than us.

Some opposition of the Council makes a lot of noise, being totally "ignorant" of the Bible, they shout "ignorace" the loudest.
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  #12  
Old Aug 31, '04, 9:16 am
mercygate mercygate is offline
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Default Re: Paul superior to Peter?

Protestants have a vested interest in downplaying the role of Peter (no kidding?). Whenever I am confronted with a Paul-over-Peter argument, I cite Galatians 2:

[2] I [Paul] went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. . . . and I laid before them (but privately before those who were of repute) the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles . . .[6] And . . . those who were . . . of repute added nothing to me; [7] but on the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised [8] (for he who worked through Peter for the mission to the circumcised worked through me also for the Gentiles),
[9] and when they perceived the grace that was given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised; (RSV)

In other words, Paul, who was not shy to "oppose Peter to his face," nevertheless boasted in the Epistle to the Galatians that Cephas, James and John -- "those of repute" in Jerusalem -- had affirmed his gospel and given him "the right hand of fellowship" . . . to preach the good news to the Gentiles.

Last edited by mercygate; Aug 31, '04 at 9:18 am. Reason: type face correction
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  #13  
Old Aug 31, '04, 4:40 pm
Steven Merten Steven Merten is offline
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Default Re: Paul superior to Peter?

The better question would be, "Do Protestants believe St. Paul to be superior to Jesus?"

A Protestant once asked me, "Are you saved?". I turned and asked, "What must I do to share in everlasting life?" He came up with an answer that is not in the bible. "Accept Jesus as your personal saviour." I responded, "No! What is the perfect answer to this question? What was Jesus answer to this question?"

NAB MAR 10:17
As he was setting out on a journey a man came running up, knelt down before him and asked, "Good Teacher, what must I do to share in everlasting life?" Jesus answered, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments:
'You shall not kill;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
You shall not defraud;
Honor your father and your mother.'"


The Protestant told me that Jesus taught for three years but after Christ died His teaching was obsoleted in their eyes. Now they use their interpetation of St. Paul's post ressurection writings in which, as they see it, Christ's teaching of obedience and good works are out and St. Paul's "faith only" is needed, he told me. "How can you teach opposite or anti-Christ's teachings which He commanded us to believe?", I asked.

Catholics "believe" in Jesus by puting into practice what He told us to do. Protestants do not base their faith on Jesus teaching but on what they misunderstand St. Paul to say. They do not "believe" in what Jesus taught.

The Joint Catholic Lutheran Declaration on Justification portrays the Protestant thought of throwing out what Jesus taught as the path to salvation for misunderstandings of St. Pauls writings. St. Paul is quoted or refferenced at least ten to one over Jesus. What? did Jesus not have anything to say as to how to go to heaven.

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  #14  
Old Aug 31, '04, 9:28 pm
whowantsumadebo whowantsumadebo is offline
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Cool Re: Paul superior to Peter?

I think that Paul would be horrified beyond comprehension if he knew people 1500 years+ later were going to take his letters and make him sound like a jerk. Maybe he does know. I think there is a fascination with this mysterious apostle. But don't worry, in recent times James the Lord's Brother has gotten a new recognition. Against Paul! Now, according to some, James and Paul had differnt churches, and (wouldn't you know it?) Paul's survived and James' died out. Where's Peter in all this? I don't know. Where's John and the other apostles? I don't know. Apparently they didn't do anything important.
This whole overemphasis on the first chuch leaders giving them positions they didn't have is driving me nutz. Reading key verses of Paul's letters sound alot like the other books of the N.T. to me. Paul didn't live in a vaccum like some of the critics do.
I don't think most Protestants think Paul is better than Peter or the others. Just,that he spread the message the furthest(did he? I don't know) and most books of the New Testament are his.
Hey, I have a question. Are some of the churches Paul founded still around today? Let's ask them what they think of him and Peter. Debo is what Debo does.
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Old Aug 31, '04, 9:45 pm
Fidelis Fidelis is offline
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Default Re: Paul superior to Peter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Merten
The better question would be, "Do Protestants believe St. Paul to be superior to Jesus?"

The Protestant told me that Jesus taught for three years but after Christ died His teaching was obsoleted in their eyes. Now they use their interpetation of St. Paul's post ressurection writings in which, as they see it, Christ's teaching of obedience and good works are out and St. Paul's "faith only" is needed, he told me. "How can you teach opposite or anti-Christ's teachings which He commanded us to believe?", I asked.

The Joint Catholic Lutheran Declaration on Justification portrays the Protestant thought of throwing out what Jesus taught as the path to salvation for misunderstandings of St. Pauls writings. St. Paul is quoted or refferenced at least ten to one over Jesus. What? did Jesus not have anything to say as to how to go to heaven.
It is interesting that in extreme Protestant dispensationalist circles, some believe that Jesus and his teachings (i.e. the Gospels) do not apply to Christians, but only to those Jews who heard Jesus and, eventually, to those Jews who will accept Christ after the "Rapture" (ditto for the OT). They consider themselves bound only by the writings of Paul (and the book of Revelation). This is the ultimate in the exaltation of Paul over Jesus. It also has the handy by-product of avoiding the distinctively Catholic nature of Jesus' teaching, such as Matthew 24:31-46.
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