Catholic FAQ


Help support Catholic Answers!

Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Feb 14, '07, 11:16 pm
HailMary HailMary is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2006
Posts: 1,818
Religion: Eastern Catholic: Chaldean
Default "He shall be called a Nazorean"

Hello my separated Christian

I come with a point of meditation for you that has to do with tradition. As you may know, we Catholics have Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. Here is an example of a Sacred Tradition, most everyone looks over.

Matthew 2:23:
Quote:
He went and dwelt in a town called Nazareth, so that what had been spoken through the prophets[might be fulfilled, "He shall be called a Nazorean."
Please, can anyone tell me the source of this prophecy?

I will save your time: you cannot because it is no where to be found in the bible. It was a TRADITION that was handed down through the ages.

In other words, if you hold to the notion of SOLA SCRIPTURA, then, as a 21st century Christian, should reject this prophecy since there is no evidence, in the bible, that any prophet of God ever spoke such a thing.

Else, you are lying to yourself and do not really practice Sola Scriptura: making yourself out to be a mini-pope.

You comments are welcome!

God Bless

St. Joseph, terror of demons, pray for us!
__________________
www.qorbono.com
Listen free here.
Become devoted to Our Lady of Sorrows!
God who created you without you, will not save you without you - St. Augustine
Liturgy makes history

Last edited by Michael Francis; Feb 15, '07 at 4:44 am. Reason: typo correction
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Feb 14, '07, 11:54 pm
ProdigalSonOfOz ProdigalSonOfOz is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2006
Posts: 40
Default Re: "He shall be called a Nazorean"

There are MANY elements of the NT are that are direct references to Jewish Sacred Tradition (Mishna). Heres a few more…

Matthew 23:2-3 “seat of Moses”: Reference to Exodus 18:13-26. The bible contains no reference to this after Moses, yet the fact that The Pharisees sit on the chair indicates succession of authority.

I Corinthians 10:4: 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ: Exodus 17:1-7 refers to a rock but not in this context. This legend is found ONLY in the Mishna

1 Peter 3:19 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison: This is a direct reference to 1 Enoch 12-16. Not in the Bible!

Jude 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. : This is not contained within the Bible, it draws on Jewish Oral Tradition

Jude 14-15: Direct quote from 1 Enoch 1:9

2 Timothy 3:8: : Jannes and Jambres cannot be found in the related Old Testament passage (Exodus 7:8 ff.).

James 5:17: : The reference to a lack of rain for three years is likewise absent from the relevant Old Testament passage in 1 Kings 17

John 20:23, Matt 18:18, Matt 16:19 “binding and losing”: The term is only found in the Mishna
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Feb 15, '07, 3:42 am
Reformed1 Reformed1 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: November 15, 2006
Posts: 423
Religion: Presbyterian (PCA)
Default Re: "He shall be called a Nazorean"

Quote:
Originally Posted by HailMary View Post
Hello my separated Christian

I come with a point of meditation for you that has to do with tradition. As you may know, we Catholics have Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. Here is an example of a Sacred Tradition, most everyone looks over.

Matthew 2:23:


Please, can anyone tell me the source of this prophecy?

I will save your time: you cannot because it is no where to be found in the bible. It was a TRADITION that was handed down through the ages.

In other words, if you hold to the notion of SOLA SCRIPTURA, then, as a 21st century Christian, should reject this prophecy since there is no evidence, in the bible, that any prophet of God ever spoke such a thing.

Else, you are lying to yourself and do not really practice Sola Scriptura: making yourself out to be a mini-pope.

You comments are welcome!

God Bless

St. Joseph, terror of demos, pray for us!
But it is now scripture is it not?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Feb 15, '07, 4:54 am
NotWorthy's Avatar
NotWorthy NotWorthy is offline
Forum Master
 
Join Date: May 10, 2005
Posts: 13,932
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: "He shall be called a Nazorean"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed1 View Post
But it is now scripture is it not?
So you missed the point. The OP said, "For it was written by the prophets...."

Not, "now that I've written it, I can say it was written by the prophets...."
__________________
Follow your Dreams! Except for the ones where you're naked in Church!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Feb 15, '07, 5:03 am
RNRobert's Avatar
RNRobert RNRobert is offline
Regular Member
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: June 26, 2004
Posts: 1,885
Religion: Roman Catholic (Tiber Swim Team - Class of '96)
Default Re: "He shall be called a Nazorean"

Some have said that Matt 2:23 is an allusion to Isaiah 11:1-
"But a shoot shall sprout from the stump of Jesse, and from his roots a bud shall blossom. The Hebrew for bud is neser, and some scholars believe that this is what Matthew is referring to.
Also, in the Old Testament, there were people known as nazarites (like Samson) who were concecrated to God.
__________________
Then Jesus said to them: "Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you." John 6:54



Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Feb 15, '07, 5:05 am
Reformed1 Reformed1 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: November 15, 2006
Posts: 423
Religion: Presbyterian (PCA)
Default Re: "He shall be called a Nazorean"

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotWorthy View Post
So you missed the point. The OP said, "For it was written by the prophets...."

Not, "now that I've written it, I can say it was written by the prophets...."
But it is now in the scriptures is it not? If it is, it is no longer tradition.

I don't see how this helps the RCC because unlike many of the traditions you claim are apostolic in origin, this "tradition" is laid out explicitly in scripture.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Feb 15, '07, 5:12 am
Mannyfit75's Avatar
Mannyfit75 Mannyfit75 is offline
Veteran Member
Greeter
Prayer Warrior
Radio Club Member
Forum Supporter
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2006
Posts: 10,471
Religion: Catholic (Latin Rite)
Send a message via AIM to Mannyfit75 Send a message via MSN to Mannyfit75 Send a message via Yahoo to Mannyfit75
Default Re: "He shall be called a Nazorean"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed1 View Post
But it is now in the scriptures is it not? If it is, it is no longer tradition.

I don't see how this helps the RCC because unlike many of the traditions you claim are apostolic in origin, this "tradition" is laid out explicitly in scripture.
The OP ask it is written, "For it was written by the prophets...."

Where exactly is it written? The the question remains, which prophets wrote it, "He shall be called a Nazoreans."

This is not a Catholic issue. It's Christian issue.. Suppose some Jew who does not believe challenge you with this verse? He will say, Our Torah does not mention any prophet concerning, "He shall be called a Nazorean."


How do we as Christians, refute this?
__________________
Call me Emmanuel, or Manny.

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ,.." - St. Ignatius of Antioch, "Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D." - Manny
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Feb 15, '07, 5:52 am
Reformed1 Reformed1 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: November 15, 2006
Posts: 423
Religion: Presbyterian (PCA)
Default Re: "He shall be called a Nazorean"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannyfit75 View Post
The OP ask it is written, "For it was written by the prophets...."

Where exactly is it written? The the question remains, which prophets wrote it, "He shall be called a Nazoreans."

This is not a Catholic issue. It's Christian issue.. Suppose some Jew who does not believe challenge you with this verse? He will say, Our Torah does not mention any prophet concerning, "He shall be called a Nazorean."


How do we as Christians, refute this?
Manny,

I'm just not seeing the issue here. I'll think about it for a little bit and get back to you.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Feb 15, '07, 10:48 am
jimmy jimmy is offline
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: June 22, 2004
Posts: 9,529
Default Re: "He shall be called a Nazorean"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed1 View Post
But it is now in the scriptures is it not? If it is, it is no longer tradition.

I don't see how this helps the RCC because unlike many of the traditions you claim are apostolic in origin, this "tradition" is laid out explicitly in scripture.
The point that the OP was trying to make was that the authors of scripture did not believe in sola scriptura. If they did not preach it, how can you preach it?
__________________
"Who has the more difficult task: the teacher who lectures on earnest things a meteor's distance from everyday life-or the learner who should put it to use?"
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Feb 15, '07, 1:02 pm
elvisman elvisman is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 15, 2004
Posts: 5,819
Religion: Hard Core Catholic
Default Re: "He shall be called a Nazorean"

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmy View Post
The point that the OP was trying to make was that the authors of scripture did not believe in sola scriptura. If they did not preach it, how can you preach it?
BINGO!!
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old Feb 15, '07, 1:22 pm
sandusky sandusky is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: August 9, 2005
Posts: 4,380
Religion: Reformed (Former Catholic)
Thumbs down Re: Mistaken Assumptions Concerning Sola Scriptura

Quote:
Originally Posted by HailMary
In other words, if you hold to the notion of SOLA SCRIPTURA, then, as a 21st century Christian, should reject this prophecy since there is no evidence, in the bible, that any prophet of God ever spoke such a thing.

Else, you are lying to yourself and do not really practice Sola Scriptura: making yourself out to be a mini-pope.
You mistakenly assume that Sola Scriptura states that ALL THINGS said or done by the prophets and Christ are written in Scripture; it does not state that, as it is written:
John 20:30
Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;

John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.
Sola Scriptura states that scripture is the sole rule of faith and morals, and that scripture is sufficient with respect to faith, morals, knowledge of God, understanding of salvation, etc.

Purchase a copy of the book Sola Scriptura, and then read it; perhaps then you will understand the doctrine, and then, you can stop misrepresenting it.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old Feb 15, '07, 1:39 pm
NotWorthy's Avatar
NotWorthy NotWorthy is offline
Forum Master
 
Join Date: May 10, 2005
Posts: 13,932
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Mistaken Assumptions Concerning Sola Scriptura

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandusky View Post
You mistakenly assume that Sola Scriptura states that ALL THINGS said or done by the prophets and Christ are written in Scripture; it does not state that, as it is written:
John 20:30
Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;

John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.
I think Sandusky has a point here. If, say, Isaiah wrote this, it doesn't mean that it has to be included in his book (of Isaiah). So you could say it was written by Isaiah without finding it in Scriptures.

Of course, I'll let him handle the rest of what he says on his own.
__________________
Follow your Dreams! Except for the ones where you're naked in Church!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old Feb 15, '07, 3:36 pm
JoeyWarren JoeyWarren is offline
Banned
Forum Supporter
 
Join Date: January 3, 2006
Posts: 3,954
Religion: Born into Baptistism, Born Again into Catholichristianity
Thumbs down Re: Mistaken Assumptions Concerning Sola Scriptura

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandusky View Post
You mistakenly assume that Sola Scriptura states that ALL THINGS said or done by the prophets and Christ are written in Scripture; it does not state that, as it is written:
John 20:30
Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;

John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.
Sola Scriptura states that scripture is the sole rule of faith and morals, and that scripture is sufficient with respect to faith, morals, knowledge of God, understanding of salvation, etc.

Purchase a copy of the book Sola Scriptura, and then read it; perhaps then you will understand the doctrine, and then, you can stop misrepresenting it.
Neither can Sola Scriptura be proven from scripture either. It's self-refuting.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Feb 15, '07, 3:58 pm
HailMary HailMary is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2006
Posts: 1,818
Religion: Eastern Catholic: Chaldean
Default Re: Mistaken Assumptions Concerning Sola Scriptura

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandusky View Post
You mistakenly assume that Sola Scriptura states that ALL THINGS said or done by the prophets and Christ are written in Scripture; it does not state that, as it is written:
John 20:30
Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;

John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.
Sola Scriptura states that scripture is the sole rule of faith and morals, and that scripture is sufficient with respect to faith, morals, knowledge of God, understanding of salvation, etc.

Purchase a copy of the book Sola Scriptura, and then read it; perhaps then you will understand the doctrine, and then, you can stop misrepresenting it.
see Post #9
__________________
www.qorbono.com
Listen free here.
Become devoted to Our Lady of Sorrows!
God who created you without you, will not save you without you - St. Augustine
Liturgy makes history
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old Feb 15, '07, 4:04 pm
BrianH BrianH is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2005
Posts: 2,799
Religion: Protestant
Default Re: "He shall be called a Nazorean"

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by HailMary View Post
Hello my separated Christian
Well Howdy to you too

Quote:
I come with a point of meditation for you that has to do with tradition. As you may know, we Catholics have Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. Here is an example of a Sacred Tradition, most everyone looks over.
So Catholics also believe that Jewish tradition is "Sacred Tradition" and infallible as well?
I was not aware of this.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8020Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: Butterflylily
4811CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: mountee
4281Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: flower lady
4027OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: fencersmother
3809SOLITUDE
Last by: Prairie Rose
3356Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3177Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: 4elise
3141Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
2953For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: flower lady
2672Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 9:02 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2013, Catholic Answers.