Homosexual Priests

[Shoshana]

Originally Posted by ThereCanBeOnly1

You have been excused. I did not intend to offend but scripture, inspired by the Most Holy Ghost the third Person in the Trinity and therefore is GOD+, has clearly indicated the standpoint in this case, on many occasions, . For Clarification A priest ceases to be a Priest if he is Homosexual. Let us not forget Sodom and Gomorrah.

Jude 1:7 -“As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the neighboring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication, and going after strange flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.”

For your point on being and not acting:

ST. Mat 18: 8 And if thy hand, or thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee to go into life maimed or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire. 9 And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee having one eye to enter into life, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Please review Posts #21, 22, and 27 for your clarification.

What makes you think that homisexual have more temptations than heterosexual priests? Mother Church has wriiten about this issue but not on the fact about priests that have already been ordained and are non acting homosuxals. AND i bleive there are just as many devout homosexual priests as there are heterosexual ones. And you really prove that....homosexual priest who are chaste as opposed who are not are two different things.

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

Originally Posted by Shoshana

What makes you think that homisexual have more temptations than heterosexual priests? Mother Church has wriiten about this issue but not on the fact about priests that have already been ordained and are non acting homosuxals. AND i bleive there are just as many devout homosexual priests as there are heterosexual ones. And you really prove that....homosexual priest who are chaste as opposed who are not are two different things.

I understand what you have written, so now please do not avoid this: Please tell me what these mean:

Romans 1: 21- “Because that, when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God, or given thanks; but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was darkened... 25-27 who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature. And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error... 32- they who do such things, are worthy of death; and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them.”

Jude 1:7 -“As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the neighboring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication, and going after strange flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire."

And your point about wanting but not acting:

St. Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell.

Leviticus 20:13, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

[Shoshana]

Originally Posted by ThereCanBeOnly1

I understand what you have written, so now please do not avoid this: Please tell me what these mean:

Romans 1: 21- “Because that, when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God, or given thanks; but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was darkened... 25-27 who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God delivered them up to shameful affections.

What makes you think that devout homosexual priests have disordered affections....by this do you think that they continually lust in their heart for anothe rman? This is not necessarily so. No different than saying that a devout heterosexual priest would continually lust after a woman. And this is not encessarily so.
For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature. And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error... 32- they who do such things, are worthy of death; and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them.”

Only if they act on it.

Jude 1:7 -“As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the neighboring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication, and going after strange flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire."

Again this is acting on it.

And your point about wanting but not acting:

St. Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell.

This verse is also for heterosexuals of either gender.

Leviticus 20:13, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

We are not talking about acting homosexual priests.

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

Originally Posted by Shoshana

What makes you think that homisexual have more temptations than heterosexual priests? Mother Church has wriiten about this issue but not on the fact about priests that have already been ordained and are non acting homosuxals. AND i bleive there are just as many devout homosexual priests as there are heterosexual ones. And you really prove that....homosexual priest who are chaste as opposed who are not are two different things.

Simply you do not understand the Word of God+:

Romans 1 clearly teaches that homosexuality is “against nature,” which means that this orientation is foreign to man’s nature; that is, it is NOT INSTILLED BY GOD. As a result of idolatry, God sometimes allows a demon to take people over, possess them, and change their sexual orientation, as St. Paul describes. Men and women are given over to homosexuality for inundating themselves with sins of impurity – thereby worshipping the flesh rather than God. For this sin they can get possessed by the demon of lust, which takes them over and corrupts their entire orientation. (And they can be cured of this.) People also become homosexuals by engaging in idolatry by either harboring a perverse fascination with human beings over God – thereby worshipping the creature rather than the Creator – or by simply worshipping something that is a creature or the work of one’s hands. The fact that all homosexuals are possessed by a demon is corroborated by the fact that most homosexual males can be identified by their effeminate external mannerisms. What explains this? It’s obviously the demon’s presence in the person making itself manifest externally – the external, unnatural mannerisms revealing the internal corruption of the soul.

Isaias 3:9 – "The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! For they have rewarded evil unto themselves."

Notice that the prophet Isaias, referring to homosexuals, says that “they have rewarded evil unto themselves.” This is strikingly similar to Romans 1 above, where St. Paul says that homosexuals have received “in themselves the recompense [reward] which was due to their error.”

(taken from the Most Holy Family Monastery)

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

Originally Posted by Shoshana

What makes you think that homisexual have more temptations than heterosexual priests? Mother Church has wriiten about this issue but not on the fact about priests that have already been ordained and are non acting homosuxals. AND i bleive there are just as many devout homosexual priests as there are heterosexual ones. And you really prove that....homosexual priest who are chaste as opposed who are not are two different things.

Please tell me what this means to you:

Pope Pius XI, Ad catholici sacerdotii (# 66), Dec. 20, 1935: “Give the best of your clergy to your seminaries; do not fear to take them from other positions. These [other] positions may seem of greater moment, but in reality their importance is not to be compared with that of the seminaries, which is capital and indispensable. Seek also from elsewhere, wherever you can find them, men really fitted for this noble task. Let them be such as teach priestly virtues, rather by example than by words, men who are capable of imparting, together with learning, a solid, manly and apostolic spirit.”
This obviously is not in reference to Homosexual acting/non-acting/thinking/or whatever else you want to classify it. Again I reiterate a priest CANNOT be in any way shape or form, a Homosexual.

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

Originally Posted by Shoshana

St. Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell.

This verse is also for heterosexuals of either gender.

Yes it is and so if you think of evil, scripture is telling you what you must do.
Let me see if I understand your mindset. Are you saying that Christ+ the second Person in the Trinity and therefore is GOD+, taught his disciples that Homosexual thoughts are okay as long as you do not act on it,? Think about this, since it is clear that Homosexual thoughts are evil, why would GOD+ want us to have evil thoughts especially clergymen? Should they not be thinking about GOD+ and prayer instead of sex and Homosexuality? Priests should be totally devoted to GOD+ and to think and live like Christ+. Even If one is thinking and not acting on Homosexuality, then one is not living like Christ+ as a priest should be. Hence they are not priests, well at least not of the Catholic Church.

[PaixGioiaAmor]

Originally Posted by ThereCanBeOnly1

Yes it is and so if you think of evil, scripture is telling you what you must do.
Let me see if I understand your mindset. Are you saying that Christ+ the second Person in the Trinity and therefore is GOD+, taught his disciples that Homosexual thoughts are okay as long as you do not act on it,? Think about this, since it is clear that Homosexual thoughts are evil, why would GOD+ want us to have evil thoughts especially clergymen? Should they not be thinking about GOD+ and prayer instead of sex and Homosexuality? Priests should be totally devoted to GOD+ and to think and live like Christ+. Even If one is thinking and not acting on Homosexuality, then one is not living like Christ+ as a priest should be. Hence they are not priests, well at least not of the Catholic Church.

So, what if a priest, as a human is tempted to lie? They certainly are not acting as Christ. What if a priest is tempted to engage in a relationship with a woman against their vows? They are certainly not acting like Christ.

Why does one sin get special status?

[johnstown johnn]

Originally Posted by PaixGioiaAmor

So, what if a priest, as a human is tempted to lie? They certainly are not acting as Christ. What if a priest is tempted to engage in a relationship with a woman against their vows? They are certainly not acting like Christ.

Why does one sin get special status?

The sin of homosexuality as stated in St. Paul is a sin that is prompted by a demonic possession. It is a vile slap at God's intention for man's nature.

As for a priest having a sexual affair..that is comparing apples to oranges. They are NOT similar even though they both carrry eternal condemnation if gone unrepentant.

For a fornication with a woman the priest, if repentant, can receive absoloution. It is a sin of the flesh that violates his vow of chastity. It would take much penance.

A homosexual inclination and the acting out takes much more to overcome when you digest St. Paul's words..it begs for an exorcism.

A homosexual act is an actual hatred directed at God. It is demonic.

They must not be compared. One is a sexual sin (hetero) but the other is not. Homosexual acts are not sex...they are the most degrading act against God. Same-sex sex is impossible. There is no such thing.

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

Originally Posted by PaixGioiaAmor

So, what if a priest, as a human is tempted to lie? They certainly are not acting as Christ. What if a priest is tempted to engage in a relationship with a woman against their vows? They are certainly not acting like Christ.

Why does one sin get special status?

Priests should not lie nor should they commit Sodomy or think of Sodomizing. Do you agree or it it okay for your priest to think but not act about Sodomizing? Is this like Christ+ who is GOD+? I think not my dear friend. Why does one sin get special status? You say this not I . There are different types of sins and different penalties for them. eg. Mortal vs Venial sins.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

(II) DIVISION OF SIN

Internal Sins

That sin may be committed not only by outward deeds but also by the inner activity of the mind apart from any external manifestation, is plain from the precept of the Decalogue: "Thou shalt not covet", and from Christ's rebuke of the scribes and pharisees whom he likens to "whited sepulchres... full of all filthiness" (Matthew 23:27). Hence the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, c. v), in declaring that all mortal sins must be confessed, makes special mention of those that are most secret and that violate only the last two precepts of the Decalogue, adding that they "sometimes more grievously wound the soul and are more dangerous than sins which are openly committed". Three kinds of internal sin are usually distinguished:

* delectatio morosa, i.e. the pleasure taken in a sinful thought or imagination even without desiring it;
* gaudium, i.e. dwelling with complacency on sins already committed; and
* desiderium, i.e. the desire for what is sinful.

An efficacious desire, i.e. one that includes the deliberate intention to realize or gratify the desire, has the same malice, mortal or venial, as the action which it has in view. An inefficacious desire is one that carries a condition, in such a way that the will is prepared to perform the action in case the condition were verified. When the condition is such as to eliminate all sinfulness from the action, the desire involves no sin: e.g. I would gladly eat meat on Friday, if I had a dispensation; and in general this is the case whenever the action is forbidden by positive law only. When the action is contrary to natural law and yet is permissible in given circumstances or in a particular state of life, the desire, if it include those circumstances or that state as conditions, is not in itself sinful: e.g. I would kill so-and-so if I had to do it in self-defence. Usually, however, such desires are dangerous and therefore to be repressed. If, on the other hand, the condition does not remove the sinfulness of the action, the desire is also sinful. This is clearly the case where the action is intrinsically and absolutely evil, e.g. blasphemy: one cannot without committing sin, have the desire -- I would blaspheme God if it were not wrong; the condition is an impossible one and therefore does not affect the desire itself. The pleasure taken in a sinful thought (delectatio, gaudium) is, generally speaking, a sin of the same kind and gravity as the action which is thought of. Much, however, depends on the motive for which one thinks ofsinful actions. The pleasure, e.g. which one may experience in studying the nature of murder or any other crime, in getting clear ideas on the subject, tracing its causes, determining the guilt etc., is not a sin; on the contrary, it is often both necessary and useful. The case is different of course where the pleasure means gratification in the sinful object or action itself. And it is evidently a sin when one boasts of his evil deeds, the more so because of the scandal that is given.

(The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XIV. Published 1912. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, July 1, 1912. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York)

[CatholicCajun]

I am not a church expert, but celebate is celebate (did I spell that right?) whether homosexual or not, you must adhere to your vow of celebacy. God Bless.

[Other Eric]

Originally Posted by CatholicCajun

I am not a church expert, but celebate is celebate (did I spell that right?) whether homosexual or not, you must adhere to your vow of celebacy. God Bless.

Celibacy is a gift of the Holy Spirit whereby an individual, in this case a priest, sacrifices the good of having his own family in order to minister to the Church. Since those with same-sex attractions can have no valid desire for this type of family, their sexual faculty being perverted against God, they have no licit sacrifice to make. To equate the Manichean sexual suppression of those with same-sex attractions to the noble sacrifice made by members of the cloth is to both minimize the sacrifice of the priest and elevate a disgusting perversion to a level of respectability.

[CatholicCajun]

Originally Posted by Other Eric

Celibacy is a gift of the Holy Spirit whereby an individual, in this case a priest, sacrifices the good of having his own family in order to minister to the Church. Since those with same-sex attractions can have no valid desire for this type of family, their sexual faculty being perverted against God, they have no licit sacrifice to make. To equate the Manichean sexual suppression of those with same-sex attractions to the noble sacrifice made by members of the cloth is to both minimize the sacrifice of the priest and elevate a disgusting perversion to a level of respectability.

Thank you so much for showing me this point. That is why I love this place, I get to be educated on things. God Bless.

[MMLJ]

Originally Posted by Other Eric

Celibacy is a gift of the Holy Spirit whereby an individual, in this case a priest, sacrifices the good of having his own family in order to minister to the Church. Since those with same-sex attractions can have no valid desire for this type of family, their sexual faculty being perverted against God, they have no licit sacrifice to make. To equate the Manichean sexual suppression of those with same-sex attractions to the noble sacrifice made by members of the cloth is to both minimize the sacrifice of the priest and elevate a disgusting perversion to a level of respectability.

Excellent points. I would go further and say it is worse than disgusting perversion and must be stopped.

Catholic Encyclopedia
III. MORTAL SIN

Mortal sin is defined by St. Augustine (Contra Faustum, XXII, xxvii) as "Dictum vel factum vel concupitum contra legem æternam", i.e. something said, done or desired contrary to the eternal law, or a thought, word, or deed contrary to the eternal law. This is a definition of sin as it is a voluntary act. As it is a defect or privation it may be defined as an aversion from God, our true last end, by reason of the preference given to some mutable good.

Priests according to the Bible, Saints, and the Catholic encyclopedia ARE NOT priests. Look It Up please at your own discretion.
The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XIV. Published 1912 or here is the link:
http://www.newadvent.org/

[Genesis315]

Originally Posted by MMLJ

Excellent points. I would go further and say it is worse than disgusting perversion and must be stopped.

Catholic Encyclopedia
III. MORTAL SIN

Mortal sin is defined by St. Augustine (Contra Faustum, XXII, xxvii) as "Dictum vel factum vel concupitum contra legem æternam", i.e. something said, done or desired contrary to the eternal law, or a thought, word, or deed contrary to the eternal law. This is a definition of sin as it is a voluntary act. As it is a defect or privation it may be defined as an aversion from God, our true last end, by reason of the preference given to some mutable good.

Priests according to the Bible, Saints, and the Catholic encyclopedia ARE NOT priests. Look It Up please at your own discretion.
The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XIV. Published 1912 or here is the link:
http://www.newadvent.org/

There's a difference between a desire and a temptation. Look, you can spurn the policy of a Pope and Saint if you like (St. Leo IX), but I don't recommend it.

[MMLJ]

Originally Posted by Genesis315

There's a difference between a desire and a temptation. Look, you can spurn the policy of a Pope and Saint if you like (St. Leo IX), but I don't recommend it.

Your recommendation is noted, thank you. But it is as is written in the Catholic Encyclopedia, And neither You Nor I can put spin on its meaning or intent:

Catholic Encyclopedia
III. MORTAL SIN


Mortal sin is defined by St. Augustine (Contra Faustum, XXII, xxvii) as "Dictum vel factum vel concupitum contra legem æternam", i.e. something said, done or desired contrary to the eternal law, or a thought, word, or deed contrary to the eternal law. This is a definition of sin as it is a voluntary act. As it is a defect or privation it may be defined as an aversion from God, our true last end, by reason of the preference given to some mutable good.


The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XIV. Published 1912 or here is the link:
http://www.newadvent.org/