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  #1  
Old Feb 26, '07, 8:50 am
GandalfTheWhite GandalfTheWhite is offline
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Default Bible and Alcohol

Quote:
Let's investigate this. For that we have the Bible. Don't bring some other hocus-pocus documents or theories of churches to the table. If a real Christian wants to know what God has to say on something, turn to the Bible. There are FEW things in life, which is not mentioned in the Bible, and with those things, the New Testament - and entire Bible - teaches us to judge such things 'in the spirit of the Bible.' But that's on other matters.
________________________________________ ________________

I'm going to lay out several different perspectives. Each point may puzzle you, or even make you question God's Word. You decide. Each person can do as they please with the evidence. But the evidence is clear. Just pray.


1. W.W.J.D.
__
I personally believe that since the days of Jesus Christ, no statement made has been more powerful then, "What Would Jesus Do?"
In fact, there is Biblical evidence behind the truth of the question. Also, to ask such a question, it is IMPERATIVE and CRUCIAL that the person who asks the question, has a solid understanding of the Bible. Otherwise, one may arrive upon a situation, such as stealing from a store if you're hungry, and after asking the question, you decide that Jesus would steal.

2. Jesus changes water to wine.
__
John 2:7 "Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim. 8 Then He told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet." They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did NOT realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now." 11 This, the first of His miraculous signs, Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee. He thus revealed His glory, and His disciples put their faith in Him.

= With the above miracle alone, ANY person on earth would agree 100% that Christ is not against alcohol. Correct? But as a Christian, are we taught to read the ENTIRE Bible or bits-and-pieces? Entire Bible. So therefore, one must see what the rest of the Bible says on the subject.
= Before we proceed, let's ask ourselves a few questions.
1. Is it possible, that Christ chose His first miracle to be wine, to prove to NON-BELIEVERS(drunkards) that He has power?? Could it be that He chose wine to prove a Divine point/truth? Why did He choose the wine? Ask Him when you get to heaven.
2. Does it say that Jesus drank the wine at the wedding?? C'mon, someone can answer the question.
3. Does the Bible/God contradict Himself? Ooooo, this is a tough one.

3. Birth of John the Baptist
__
Luke 1:11 "Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. 12 When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. 13 But the angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John. 14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth. 16 Many of the people of Israel will he bring back to the Lord their God. 17 And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

= Verse 15 "for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth."

1. Does this verse imply a vague distinction between wine and other fermented drinks?
2. If other fermented drinks existed back then, then this is more evidence to indicate that what if wine was grape juice (as many people today believe), and "other fermented drink" meant the actual alcholic drink.
3. Furthermore, since obviously other fermented(alcoholic) drinks existed in those days, how come we can't find in the Bible distinctions in the names? Today we have Budweiser or Coors, and wine. We have Beer, we have Wine, we have grape juice. Different names.
4. Can it be that the people in those days didn't have another name for those other alcholic drinks some farmers invented? Look at America today, we only have ONE word for Love, when other countries have over 5!!!!
5. Fine. What if some people crushed the grapes and just drank it fresh like that, and others let it ferment to become Alcohol?
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  #2  
Old Feb 26, '07, 8:51 am
GandalfTheWhite GandalfTheWhite is offline
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Default Re: Bible and Alcohol

Cont.
Quote:
4. Examples from Biblical Saints
__
Throughout the Bible, we can see clearly that God's people did not drink. Well, some of you may say that's not true. To some degree you're right. But those Christians that did drink, they immediately sinned. Yes, I am certain after that they asked for forgiveness and changed their ways.

1. Look at Paul. Did he mention he drank? In fact, Paul boldly proclaimed divinely, (1 Corinthians 11:1) "Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ." Powerful words, no?

The MAJORITY of the times wine is mentioned in the Bible, it is associated with some kind of sin and evil.
1. Look what happened to Abraham. (Genesis 9)
2. Look what happened to Lot. And because of that, look how his "children" ended up. They served other gods. (Judges 10:6) THey also fought with God's people for a long time.

5. Further Research
__
Proverbs 20:1 "Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise."

1. Here is another distinction between wine and beer(another type of fermented drink we mentioned earlier) But we don't know what kind that is. Is it rice beer? etc.
2. There are many verses in the bible were if you were to insert, "grape juice" instead of alcohol wine, it would make sense. In other verses, the alcoholic wine makes sense in the verse.

Proverbs 23:31 "Do not gaze at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it goes down smoothly! 32 In the end it bites like a snake and poisons like a viper."

1. See? This particular verse is quite clear.


Proverbs 31:4 "It is not for kings, O Lemuel— not for kings to drink wine, not for rulers to crave beer, 5 lest they drink and forget what the law decrees, and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.

1. These verses are astounding and profound. Whoever Lemuel was, he was a king. His earthly mother taught him that drinking alcohol was not right. This reminds me of the verse that says, "Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it."
2. It is SO evident here, that it EVEN mentions the word 'crave.' It teaches that one cannot even crave it, let alone taste it! And this man was a king!

6. Only Exception
__
Proverbs 31:6 "Give beer to those who are perishing, wine to those who are in anguish; 7 let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more."

1. This is the only verse that i know of when alcohol is allowed. In fact, there is universal evidence that states, on a cut one should pour wine/alcohol to disinfect. Not only that, to some degree it makes a man numb to the pain he's having. The word 'perishing' here indicates to me that is when someone is dying with terrible pain.


ANSWER: God does NOT contradict Himself. It is human's who have limited knowledge of the Bible and of life that assumes God goes against His Word. As for me personally, since I have found several verses indicating that it is wrong, brother, i ain't gonna drink it! I have never have and never will. I cannot even stand the smell. I do not even cook with it. Cooking with it will eventually entice you to taste the wine.

Can anyone please have a go at this or/and point me out to some apologetic material dealing with this issue? Thanks!

Pax Domini!
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  #3  
Old Feb 26, '07, 9:08 am
deb1 deb1 is offline
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Default Re: Bible and Alcohol

I'm writing this as I read your post, so forgive me if this is disorganized.

Is it possible, that Christ chose His first miracle to be wine, to prove to NON-BELIEVERS(drunkards) that He has power?? Could it be that He chose wine to prove a Divine point/truth? Why did He choose the wine? Ask Him when you get to heaven.
2. Does it say that Jesus drank the wine at the wedding?? C'mon, someone can answer the question.



Jesus was called a drunkard by his enemies(don't remember the exact verse but this should be easy to find) Also, Jewish law never had prohibitions against moderate Alcohol drinking. This is a fundamentalist Christian assertion that is not born out through the bible or in Jewish practice. During Passover, Jewish participants drink several glasses of Alcohol. It makes no sense that Jesus, a religious Jewish male, would disagree with this practice and make no mention of it in his sermons.

Whatever point could he make, if he provided people with a substance that he considered sinful to use? Would Jesus provide modern man with cocaine to prove a point?






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  #4  
Old Feb 26, '07, 9:16 am
deb1 deb1 is offline
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Default Re: Bible and Alcohol

5. Fine. What if some people crushed the grapes and just drank it fresh like that, and others let it ferment to become Alcohol?





Did you know that the methods for keeping grape juice from fermenting was not invented until the late 1800's by the man who started Welch's Grape Juice. Look it up on their website. The only way that ancient man had to drink just grape juice was to drink it fresh from the fields. Of course, the time period between harvest and celebrations such as Passover were several months, so fermentation would have taken place.
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  #5  
Old Feb 26, '07, 9:18 am
deb1 deb1 is offline
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Default Re: Bible and Alcohol

I don't think that there are any verses condemning moderate drinking of wine or alcohol. Your friend is reading his bible through his own emotional biases.
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  #6  
Old Feb 26, '07, 9:38 am
b_justb b_justb is offline
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Default Re: Bible and Alcohol

Jesus first miracle in Cana was at a Jewish wedding, Jews believe in God. Jesus had not begun His earthly ministry until this event. Therefore the supposition of the wedding guests being non-believers is not a valid argument.

John the Baptist was consecrated a Nazarite. Nazarites did not drink alcohol.

Paul tells timothy to drink wine directly:
No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments. 1 Tim. 5:23.

Paul tells Titus about the qualities of Overseers (Bishops). Notice it doesn't say abstaining completely from wine, but the prohibition is excess use, or addition to:
For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, Titus 1:7

All of the prohibition from Sacred Scripture on alcohol consumption speaks to the abuse of it not the use of it
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The Epistle of St. Paul to the Churches of Galatia 5:25, 26
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no provoking of one another, no envy of one another.

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  #7  
Old Feb 26, '07, 11:24 am
Tom Tom is offline
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Default Re: Bible and Alcohol

Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfTheWhite View Post
For that we have the Bible. Don't bring some other hocus-pocus documents or theories of churches to the table.
Fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by www.drbo.org
Matthew 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking; and they say: He hath a devil. 19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say: Behold a man that is a glutton and a wine drinker, a friend of publicans and sinners. And wisdom is justified by her children. (Also Luke 7:33-35)
Quote:
Originally Posted by www.drbo.org
Luke 5:39 And no man drinking old, hath presently a mind to new: for he saith, The old is better.
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  #8  
Old Feb 26, '07, 11:45 am
Tom Tom is offline
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Default Re: Bible and Alcohol

Quote:
Originally Posted by www.drbo.org
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in respect of a festival day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths,
Quote:
Originally Posted by www.drbo.org
1 Timothy 5:23 Do not still drink water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake, and thy frequent infirmities.
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  #9  
Old Feb 26, '07, 12:09 pm
Tom Tom is offline
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Default Re: Bible and Alcohol

Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfTheWhite View Post
For that we have the Bible. Don't bring some other hocus-pocus documents or theories of churches to the table.
Fair enough. Are you restricted to the same rule?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfTheWhite View Post
I personally believe
What? I thought we were to keep to Scripture and not personal opinions, or did I misunderstand?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfTheWhite View Post
W.W.J.D.
Great quote… but where exactly is this in Scripture?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfTheWhite View Post
Is it possible, that Christ chose His first miracle to be wine, to prove to NON-BELIEVERS(drunkards) that He has power?? Could it be that He chose wine to prove a Divine point/truth? Why did He choose the wine? Ask Him when you get to heaven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfTheWhite View Post
Does this verse imply a vague distinction between wine and other fermented drinks?
Vague, no, it’s pretty straight forward there were more than one type of alcoholic beverage, you’re point?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfTheWhite View Post
Does it say that Jesus drank the wine at the wedding??
No, does it say He didn’t? Since there are Scriptural quotes which say He did indeed drink alcohol, I would imagine He did drink.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfTheWhite View Post
If other fermented drinks existed back then, then this is more evidence to indicate that what if wine was grape juice (as many people today believe), and "other fermented drink" meant the actual alcholic drink.
No it’s not! How do you reach that conclusion? Scripture clearly states He drank alcohol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfTheWhite View Post
Furthermore, since obviously other fermented(alcoholic) drinks existed in those days, how come we can't find in the Bible distinctions in the names? Today we have Budweiser or Coors, and wine. We have Beer, we have Wine, we have grape juice. Different names.
This is a joke right? You’re comparing first century to twenty first century? Why they didn’t have brand names in the first century? I’m sure they had grape juice also, but Scripture states He drank wine, not grape juice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfTheWhite View Post
Fine. What if some people crushed the grapes and just drank it fresh like that, and others let it ferment to become Alcohol?
Then there would have been no indication of Jesus being accused of being a drunkard would there? So silly. Stick to Scripture like you first said.
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  #10  
Old Feb 26, '07, 12:15 pm
Tom Tom is offline
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Default Re: Bible and Alcohol

Please don’t get me wrong, I firmly believe as a society we “abuse” alcohol, and that is, indeed, a sin. On a personal note I have great respect for those who totally refrain from alcohol, but to try to infer that Jesus didn’t drink alcohol, sorry, Scripture is against that teaching. Trying to imply moderation in alcoholic consumption is a sin, sorry, Scripture doesn’t support that. I do have friends who over drink alcohol, as a rule I do not drink alcohol in their presence, even if they are drinking. I feel it contributes to a brother Christians weakness.
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  #11  
Old Feb 26, '07, 12:58 pm
GandalfTheWhite GandalfTheWhite is offline
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Default Re: Bible and Alcohol

Thank you for your answers thus far.

I think I want to note. I think that strikes me about this person is that he has no problem with the fact that Jesus chooses to turn water to wine and distribute it to other people for them to drink it. If drinking wine is really sinful then such behavior should more likely be attributed to Satan and his temprations, not God.
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  #12  
Old Feb 26, '07, 1:57 pm
Tom Tom is offline
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Default Re: Bible and Alcohol

Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfTheWhite View Post
Thank you for your answers thus far.
I think I want to note. I think that strikes me about this person is that he has no problem with the fact that Jesus chooses to turn water to wine and distribute it to other people for them to drink it. If drinking wine is really sinful then such behavior should more likely be attributed to Satan and his temprations, not God.
Quite true. If alcohol consumption is a sin would Jesus provide the temptation for this sin? Hardly. As Matthew and Luke both attest, Jesus Himself drank alcohol, therefore it can not be sinful.
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  #13  
Old Feb 26, '07, 2:03 pm
Lukelion Lukelion is offline
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Default Re: Bible and Alcohol

It had to be wine! The best was saved for last. There are no different "levels" of grape juice. Ever been to a grape juice tasting party?
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  #14  
Old Feb 26, '07, 2:37 pm
Mintaka Mintaka is offline
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Default Re: Bible and Alcohol

Besides, Nazirite vows were not intended to keep Nazirites from sinning. (There's no particular merit in not sinning -- it's just doing what all humans are supposed to do!) Nazirite vows were about giving up _good_ things which _were_ permitted under the Law, for the greater glory of God and as a sacrifice to Him.
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  #15  
Old Feb 26, '07, 2:58 pm
shirleytowers shirleytowers is offline
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Default Re: Bible and Alcohol

I am not going to look this up right now, but hey didn't Jesus and the disciples drink wine at the last supper???

And I notice that at the wedding at Cana they didn't run out until after Jesus and the disciples got there.......Think about it.

But seriously, wine represents the sacred, blood of the grape magically made powerful, like the power of the blood of the lamb to save us. It is a potent symbol and I doubt God would have chosen it if it was intrinsically evil to partake.
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