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  #1  
Old Mar 10, '07, 10:27 pm
colliric colliric is offline
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Default Easter and Passover, why not on the same date?

How come Easter and Jewish Passover changed dates? I heard it was because Passover was standardized and went off the correct calculation.. but when was it? I've heard some people, Protestants, say it was at Nicaea in 325 when the RCC decided to calculate by the moon again, I've also heard others say it was sometime in the middle ages... when did it happen? why did it happen? and why don't they correct the Jewish calendar?
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  #2  
Old Mar 10, '07, 10:29 pm
lak611 lak611 is offline
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Default Re: Easter and Passover, why not on the same date?

Check out this thread for your answer. http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=137963
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  #3  
Old Mar 11, '07, 4:33 am
DRIVING BEAR DRIVING BEAR is offline
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Default Re: Easter and Passover, why not on the same date?

The Jewish system is based on a lunar year of 360 days
because a year 365 1/4 days the current jewish system adds a month on occasion , the current system is based on a 19 year cycle and adds 1 month to the year 3 times during the 19
year cycle.
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  #4  
Old Mar 11, '07, 5:24 am
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Kaninchen Kaninchen is offline
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Default Re: Easter and Passover, why not on the same date?

As a matter of interest, our calendar is out by about 6 minutes per year, so, every couple of hundred years, the spring festival of Pesach moves one day further towards summer and will, several thousand years from now, become a summer festival!

Give the rabbis of the time something to row about.
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  #5  
Old Mar 11, '07, 7:35 am
colliric colliric is offline
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Default Re: Easter and Passover, why not on the same date?

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Originally Posted by Kaninchen View Post
As a matter of interest, our calendar is out by about 6 minutes per year, so, every couple of hundred years, the spring festival of Pesach moves one day further towards summer and will, several thousand years from now, become a summer festival!

Give the rabbis of the time something to row about.
I guess theres some "Damn they got to it first, lets remain diffrent" anti-christian bias against correcting it, but really until they do, The christian passover(Easter) falls on the correct date(the passover Jesus celebrated) while the Jewish passover moves further and further away from what should be the correct dating. I posted this thread because I read an article in "The Good News", that anti-catholic magazine(I like reading it because it reminds me of why I'm converting to Catholic) which conveniently skipped over that piece of information which I already knew was true, but didn't know when or why it happened. I sent them a letter pointing it out after the first few posts of this thread clarified that for me.

I still can't get over that, that Christians use the correct biblical dating procedure of calculation from the Vernal Equinox(probally spelt that wrong!), yet Jewish religion uses an outdated Standardized version which allowed it to fall before the Equinox.

I'm in favor of you guys correcting it too, because really the RCC(which at that time included the Orthodox, although the eastern rite of their church celebrates the Friday after your festival) went biblical on that one and got it right(as usual). You'll have to eventually because as you said it will become a "Summer festival". I think it's just stubborn rabbi's not willing to give Christianity an inch.

Last edited by colliric; Mar 11, '07 at 7:49 am.
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  #6  
Old Mar 11, '07, 8:15 am
Valke2 Valke2 is offline
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Default Re: Easter and Passover, why not on the same date?

Quote:
Originally Posted by colliric View Post
I guess theres some "Damn they got to it first, lets remain diffrent" anti-christian bias against correcting it, but really until they do, The christian passover(Easter) falls on the correct date(the passover Jesus celebrated) while the Jewish passover moves further and further away from what should be the correct dating. I posted this thread because I read an article in "The Good News", that anti-catholic magazine(I like reading it because it reminds me of why I'm converting to Catholic) which conveniently skipped over that piece of information which I already knew was true, but didn't know when or why it happened. I sent them a letter pointing it out after the first few posts of this thread clarified that for me.

I still can't get over that, that Christians use the correct biblical dating procedure of calculation from the Vernal Equinox(probally spelt that wrong!), yet Jewish religion uses an outdated Standardized version which allowed it to fall before the Equinox.

I'm in favor of you guys correcting it too, because really the RCC(which at that time included the Orthodox, although the eastern rite of their church celebrates the Friday after your festival) went biblical on that one and got it right(as usual). You'll have to eventually because as you said it will become a "Summer festival". I think it's just stubborn rabbi's not willing to give Christianity an inch.
You post is completely wrong for two reason. One, there is no Christian passover. Two, the date on which we celebrate Pesach is set forth in Torah. It is a biblical commandment and it was given based on a lunar calendar.

BTW, is there a biblical commandment to celebrate Easter?
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  #7  
Old Mar 11, '07, 8:58 am
colliric colliric is offline
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Default Re: Easter and Passover, why not on the same date?

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Originally Posted by Valke2 View Post
You post is completely wrong for two reason. One, there is no Christian passover. Two, the date on which we celebrate Pesach is set forth in Torah. It is a biblical commandment and it was given based on a lunar calendar.

BTW, is there a biblical commandment to celebrate Easter?
Not right. The calculations for the Jewish year were standardized well after Christ, I think it was in the 3rd century too. So you see at that time of Christ the Jewish religion did celebrate the correct Passover dates calculated by the astronomical methods the RCC reused in 1553. But as another user pointed out the passover according to the current Jewish year, the calculations for which were completed nearly 1700 years ago, is off by 6 minutes every single year. This was probally unnoticeable back in the day.

Because the discrepancies arose between the now standardized Jewish lunar calendar and the Astronomical events which the calendar was originally calculated on... The Roman Catholic Church in 1553(immediatly following the italian adoption of the Gregorian Calandar) decided it was the right time to recalculate the dates for the Jewish year because the passover was incorrectly falling before the march Equinox(which isn't supposed to happen), using the astronomical methods which were used to calculate it originally before he Jewish Calendar standardization(although it was only really for a correct Passover calculation and not other purposes), and this revised calculation was to be quite formulaic and using more astronomical data. It has been noted that this calculation will one day itself need to also be revised to coincide with the correct lunar calculations, but that is not until 4100AD.

The biblical commandment to celebrate "easter", which is more properly known as the christian passover celebration, is both the combination of the same biblical commandment you guys got in Exodus, and also Christ's words "do this in memory of me" when he sat down having a Passover meal the Thursday before Good Friday, the day he was crucified on April 15th 33AD(the only day during Pilate's reign that Passover occured on a friday).

The celebration was expanded over the whole week rather than the one day, and it was decided that Easter Sunday, being the day Christ was resurrected, should be the biggest celebration. It was decided that Christ's words "do this in memory of me" meant that the entire passover week going until the next Sunday(day of resurrection) was to be celebrated in honor and memory of both the saving works of his crucifixion and his Father's original saving passover when he rescued the Jews from Egypt. But the Crucifixion, the new Passover occurring event which of cause occurred on the same Jewish day but on the next "Julian day"(a "Julian calandar" Friday), is to take credence.
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  #8  
Old Mar 11, '07, 9:00 am
Valke2 Valke2 is offline
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Default Re: Easter and Passover, why not on the same date?

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Originally Posted by colliric View Post
Not right. The calculations for the Jewish year were standardized well after Christ, I think it was in the 3rd century too. So you see at that time of Christ the Jewish religion did celebrate the correct Passover dates calculated by the astronomical methods the RCC reused in 1553. But as another user pointed out the passover according to the current Jewish year, the calculations for which were completed nearly 1700 years ago, is off by 6 minutes every single year. This was probally unnoticeable back in the day.

Doesn't matter. THe commandment was given at a time when we followed the calendar the way we followed the calander. God would not give us a commanment that could not be done at the time He gave it. WHen the 6 minute discrepancy becomes noticable, we'll deal with it (in aboutother 6,000years, when Nissan really starts to diverge from spring).

Last edited by Valke2; Mar 11, '07 at 9:11 am.
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  #9  
Old Mar 11, '07, 9:24 am
colliric colliric is offline
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Default Re: Easter and Passover, why not on the same date?

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Originally Posted by Valke2 View Post
Doesn't matter. THe commandment was given at a time when we followed the calendar the way we followed the calander. God would not give us a commanment that could not be done at the time He gave it.
Yes you are quite right, the command was right, but what did happen was that the jewish calandar was "standardised" well after the bible was written(including the NT).

That means it was decided that the old method of calculation for your lunar calandar, which was the astronomical calculations, was to be changed to a "standard calculation" and the future dates were to be predicted based on the information avalible at the time in the 3rd century. This calculation as was mentioned before, is off by 6 minutes every single year, which will eventually turn this spring festival into a summer festival as it gets earlier and earlier, something it didn't do under the original calculation.

The Catholic church simply made the decision to return to the old way of calculation which was employed at the time of Christ. And that is why the Christian calculation is right and is biblical and the current Jewish calculation is rife with problems.
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  #10  
Old Mar 11, '07, 10:11 am
colliric colliric is offline
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Default Re: Easter and Passover, why not on the same date?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valke2 View Post
Doesn't matter. THe commandment was given at a time when we followed the calendar the way we followed the calander. God would not give us a commanment that could not be done at the time He gave it. WHen the 6 minute discrepancy becomes noticable, we'll deal with it (in aboutother 6,000years, when Nissan really starts to diverge from spring).
The thing is that it was already noticable before 1552 because the 15th of Nisan is supposed to occur the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox Under the Jewish calendar. The passover dates were already off because it wasn't falling on the first astronomical full moon after the Equinox. The Jewish Pascal full moon and the astronomical full moon were no longer in perfect alignment and Passover was occasionally falling before the full moon it was supposed to accompany or one month after it.

The christian, sorry, Roman Catholic calculation reversed that problem by revising the calculations(based upon astrological data avalible at the time) and fixed it(The discrepency between the astrological Full moon and paschal Full moon) for all practical purposes until the year 4100AD when the calculations will no longer be completely right. It revised the Lunar calandar based on the original astrological calculation methods and did it so well that we will only need to do it again in 4100AD!

The vernal equinox was taken as March 20th in 1582(Sorry not 52, but 82) the first new dating was set.

For more information:
http://quasar.as.utexas.edu/BillInfo...Calendars.html
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  #11  
Old Mar 11, '07, 12:06 pm
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Kaninchen Kaninchen is offline
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Default Re: Easter and Passover, why not on the same date?

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Originally Posted by colliric View Post
I guess theres some "Damn they got to it first, lets remain diffrent" anti-christian bias against correcting it ... I think it's just stubborn rabbi's not willing to give Christianity an inch.
I think it's odd that you think that we Jews view our religion around a central thought of "not being Christian", odd but not exactly unprecedented, of course.
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  #12  
Old Mar 11, '07, 12:26 pm
aimee aimee is offline
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Default Re: Easter and Passover, why not on the same date?

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Originally Posted by Kaninchen View Post
I think it's odd that you think that we Jews view our religion around a central thought of "not being Christian", odd but not exactly unprecedented, of course.
What date is Passover...I have to mail a card...and I must decide how much mail time ....
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  #13  
Old Mar 11, '07, 12:32 pm
lak611 lak611 is offline
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Default Re: Easter and Passover, why not on the same date?

Here's a website from the US Navy that gives the Passover dates. http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/passover.html
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  #14  
Old Mar 11, '07, 12:34 pm
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Kaninchen Kaninchen is offline
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Default Re: Easter and Passover, why not on the same date?

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Originally Posted by aimee View Post
What date is Passover...I have to mail a card...and I must decide how much mail time ....
Nothing is ever that easy! Passover takes place over 7-8 days depending. You can find the full details here:

http://www.angelfire.com/pa2/passove...-calendar.html
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  #15  
Old Mar 11, '07, 1:51 pm
StMarkEofE StMarkEofE is offline
 
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Default Re: Easter and Passover, why not on the same date?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valke2 View Post
Doesn't matter. THe commandment was given at a time when we followed the calendar the way we followed the calander. God would not give us a commanment that could not be done at the time He gave it. WHen the 6 minute discrepancy becomes noticable, we'll deal with it (in aboutother 6,000years, when Nissan really starts to diverge from spring).
Can someone tell us just when the early Christian church stopped celebrating Passover?

I was under the impression that Jewish holy days were still being celebrated and interspersed<sp?> within early Chrisitian practices. When were they purged from our services?
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