What is "Anathema"

Mijoy2 · #1 Apr 5, '07, 5:59 am

I ask this question following listening intently to Karl Keatings' debate with a Baptist Preacher on youtube (another thread pointed me to this). By the way, I admire Mr. Keatings courage allowing himself to debate a powerful debater and obvioulsy quite intelligent, well read man on the man's home turf in front of an almost hostile crowd of clearly anti-Catholic protestants. Mr Keating, IMO, clearly put forth the more convincing arguments. However I was left with this difficulty that I hope the good people of Catholic Answer Forums might cast some light on.

Summarized, the issue is this: The preacher read some powerful statements from (I believe) the Council of Trent. I will use just a couple of examples (not necassarily the examples used by the preacher) to illustrate my point:

CANON XXVII.-If any one saith, that there is no mortal sin but that of infidelity; or, that grace once received is not lost by any other sin, however grievous and enormous, save by that of infidelity ; let him be anathema.

CANON XXIII.-lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,-except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema.

Please, my question is not in these two statements, my question is the general use of the word anathema by the Council.

Mr Keating stated (paraphrased) that the word anathema does not mean the condemnation to hell but means excommunication. He further stated that these statements only apply to Catholics and not to those outside the church because those outside the church cannot be guilty of heresy.

I wanted to trust this statement by Mr. Keating so I googled the web definition of "anathema"

Definition: Something which is "anathema" is something which is polluted or accursed. Paul used this term to refer to someone who has been completely rejected by God

Further I retrieved the web definition of accursed:

Definition: According to Webster’s New Twentieth Century Dictionary, to be accursed is to be “ruined or doomed to utter destruction.”

This seems to compromise Mr. Keatings' point. Since we believe "Completely rejected by God" to mean putting one's soul in a great deal of jeopardy (we never make the claim anyone is in hell, this was also stated by Mr. Keating).

It would appear to me that the council did indeed mean that we consider the state of one in anathema (for all the reasons stated in the council) to be in a perilous state indeed, based on the two above definitions of anathema and accursed.

Did Mr. Keating underestimate the intentions of the statements of the council? I trust not, that is why I am hoping for clearification.

jemfinch · #2 Apr 5, '07, 6:53 am

Anathema is a legal term indicating the severest of excommunications. It has this particular, limited meaning in the context of the legal canons of the Council of Trent.

An example from another realm is the word "condemned." If a house is "condemned," does this mean that it's "accursed"? Of course not. It simply means that it's unsafe for use and will be torn down. The house isn't going to hell because it's "condemned" -- the word "condemned" has a particular meaning in the context of "the state of houses." Likewise the word "anathema" has a particular meaning in the context of the legal canons of councils.

Jeremy

**puzzleannie** · #3 Apr 5, '07, 8:00 am

anathema as used in the decrees of the council of Trent and similar proclamations has a specific canon law meaning, and is defined as Karl states.

Mijoy2 · #4 Apr 5, '07, 8:53 am

Thank you, this would explain the apparent discrepency between our (Catholic view) of the church itself not announcing condemnation on any soul and this wording seemingly doing just that based on the more common understanding of the word.

However given the often anti-catholic sentiment of our fundementalist brothers in Christ, it would seem a better choice of a word (ex-communication?) might have provided them with less fuel against us.

John_Henry · #5 Apr 5, '07, 9:41 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mijoy2

Did Mr. Keating underestimate the intentions of the statements of the council? I trust not, that is why I am hoping for clearification.

All you ever wanted to know about anathema, you will find in this article.

Daniel Marsh · #6 Apr 5, '07, 1:38 pm

"Anathema" comes from Gal 1:6-8 and simply means condemmed by God -- is cursed by God to hell.

Atemi · #7 Apr 5, '07, 1:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mijoy2

However given the often anti-catholic sentiment of our fundementalist brothers in Christ, it would seem a better choice of a word (ex-communication?) might have provided them with less fuel against us.

"Anathema" has been watered down in Catholic circles of the modern era.

Here is a Pope's understanding of what anathema means:

"Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm

Anathema surely meant condemned and rejected by God and removed from the Body of Christ. The earlier Catholics did not have any qualms about saying so.

If you want to soften up the word by changing the word use to "excommunication," the next question that must be asked is excommunication FROM WHAT?

(By the way, do Catholics ever address their anti-Protestant sentiments...or is that only a one way street?)

itsjustdave1988 · #8 Apr 5, '07, 2:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atemi

"Anathema" has been watered down in Catholic circles of the mdoern era.

Here is a Pope's understanding of what anathema means:

"Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm

Anathema surely meant condemned and rejected by God and removed from the Body of Christ. The earlier Catholics did not have any qualms about saying so.

If you want to soften up the word by changing the word use to "excommunication," the next question that must be asked is excommunication FROM WHAT?

(By the way, do Catholics ever address their anti-Protestant sentiments...or is that only a one way street?)

Condemned by God? It says "In the name of God...WE declare him...anathema." But, it also says, "that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment" Thus it appears you have missed the mark.

Perhaps Catholics are best at describing what it is Catholics believe, and non-Catholics are best at describind what it is non-Catholics believe.

Atemi · #9 Apr 5, '07, 2:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsjustdave1988

Condemned by God? It says "WE declare him...anathema." But it also says, "that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment?" Thus it appears you have missed the mark.

I think between all the ellipsis, you missed the rest of the declaration.

itsjustdave1988 · #10 Apr 5, '07, 2:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atemi

I think between all the ellipsis, you missed the rest of the declaration.

No, I get it, but I also have studied Catholicism in-depth, and live Catholicism. I'm not an outsider attempting to interpret that which they do not understand. It would be much like me trying to explain Buddhism to a Buddhist, and expecting him to take me seriously.

It's not anti-Protestantism...just common sense.

Atemi · #11 Apr 5, '07, 2:17 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsjustdave1988

No, I get it, but I also have studied Catholicism in-depth, and live Catholicism. I'm not an outsider attempting to interpret that which they do not understand. It would be much like me trying to explain Buddhism to a Buddist, and expecting him to take me seriously.

It's not anti-Protestantism...just common sense.

Me as well.

I also have studied Catholicism in depth and was a Catholic for most of my life.

I am definitely not an outsider, though I know it sounds better to label me as such.

..

Nita · #12 Apr 5, '07, 2:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Marsh

"Anathema" comes from Gal 1:6-8 and simply means condemmed by God -- is cursed by God to hell.

Gal 1:8 "If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed (anathema)." Note the word is used to condemn false teaching - exactly when the Church uses it.

Nita

Harpazo · #13 Apr 5, '07, 2:25 pm

I listened to the debate. That pastor really got on my nerves. "We know the Bible is inspired because of science and mathematical statistics." He kept rambling on about how we don't need anything to know the Bible is true except science and math. How logical is that?

Karl Keating's logic and reasoning was far superior.

In Pax Christi
Andrew

itsjustdave1988 · #14 Apr 5, '07, 2:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atemi

Me as well.

I also have studied Catholicism in depth and was a Catholic for most of my life.

I am definitely not an outsider, though I know it sounds better to label me as such.

..

Great! Do you still have a license in Sacred Theology? Cuz, if your profile is true in stating you are a non-Catholic, then it seem that you are indeed a non-Catholic. Not a label, just a fact.

You see, non-Catholics are not Catholics, and thus lack much credibility in teaching Catholicism.

jemfinch · #15 Apr 5, '07, 2:36 pm

Another hour, another regurgitated Protestant troll by Atemi.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atemi

"Anathema" has been watered down in Catholic circles of the modern era.

No, it hasn't. It was the strictest form of excommunication.

Quote:

Anathema surely meant condemned and rejected by God and removed from the Body of Christ. The earlier Catholics did not have any qualms about saying so.

Odd how you stopped quoting the Catholic encyclopedia when it supported exactly what I said concerning anathema. Let's continue the quote, shall we?

Quote:

Whereupon all the assistants respond: "Fiat, fiat, fiat." The pontiff and the twelve priests then cast to the ground the lighted candles they have been carrying, and notice is sent in writing to the priests and neighbouring bishops of the name of the one who has been excommunicated and the cause of his excommunication, in order that they may have no communication with him. Although he is delivered to Satan and his angels, he can still, and is even bound to repent. The Pontifical gives the form for absolving him and reconciling him with the Church. The promulgation of the anathema with such solemnity is well calculated to strike terror to the criminal and bring him to a state of repentance, especially if the Church adds to it the ceremony of the Maranatha.

Let's look at what Paul commanded the Corinthian Church to do in the case of serious sin:

Quote:

When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

"Deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh"? Sounds just like that portion of the rite of Anathema you quoted!

Quote:

(By the way, do Catholics ever address their anti-Protestant sentiments...or is that only a one way street?)

Anathemas only apply to Catholics, since those who aren't within the boundaries of the Church cannot be excommunicated therefrom.

Atemi, your accusations are getting more and hackneyed. At least try to produce some original material that people here haven't dealt with time and time and time again.

Quote:

I am definitely not an outsider, though I know it sounds better to label me as such.

Your constant lack of understanding of the Catholic Church say it much better than we can.

Jeremy