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  #1  
Old Apr 21, '07, 10:25 am
dessert dessert is offline
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Default Neanderthal Man?

My friend had a question for me. Did God create the Neanderthal man before Adam or did it come after?
Her theory is that God created the NM first and the Cro-Magnun, then the CM kind of wiped out the NM but also some bred with each other.
They were both violent, so God allowed them to become extinct like the dinos etc. because He was not happy with these creations.
Her theory is then God created Adam so that he would be without the genetics of any other creature.
We both agreed that God did create all and everthing in the nature and the world so I could not give her an answer except that this is just part of evolution and a mystery that is hard to understand. I did read in the wiki that the CM lived till about 10,000 yr ago and then was wiped out or they claim then evolution but I don't believe in evolution.
Or was the first CM ADam? Dessert
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  #2  
Old Apr 21, '07, 1:42 pm
brotherhrolf brotherhrolf is offline
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Default Re: Neanderthal Man?

This is a very tough question to respond to. You will note that I did not say answer.

There are two schools of thought about Neandertals. Some believe that they are a separate species from us and that co-mingling of the populations would not be possible. Some believe that they were an isolated population at best or a sub-species at worst - but that mingling of the populations would be possible. This debate has been raging in the halls of Anthropology for some thirty years and there is no clear answer either way. For my own part, I do not believe that they were a separate species.

Cro-magnons. They did not die out 10,000 years ago. They are alive and well on the face of the earth today. Cro-magnons were the ancestors of us European type humans. There were ancestors of African, Asian, and Australian populations as well. ALL OF US, to this day are human beings created in the image and likeness of God.

This is far too complex a question to resolve by reading Wikipedia. That God created Creation, I have no doubt. There is rhyme and reason throughout Creation. He has given us brains to "Leave all things we have and come and follow Him".

Something happened about 50,000 years ago. Art came into the world. Never seen before in the archaeological record. Art.

To my direct knowledge, Neandertals did not create it. There are no Neandertal cave paintings, "earth mother" carvings, or vibrant carvings of animals which no longer exist upon the face of the Earth.

This question cannot be answered by pointing to chapter and verse in Genesis.
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  #3  
Old Apr 22, '07, 8:06 am
dessert dessert is offline
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Default Re: Neanderthal Man?

What my friend argues is that the Neanderthals died out, I argue that the CM were the first Adam created in God's image, she argues that was too long ago. She thinks God created all creatures and the N and the CM but then created Adam in His image not the others so that Adam could have a free will and be a genetic clean race. I'm not saying the CM are died out but she argues that there were other people living in the world when Adam and Eve left the garden and she thinks that these are who Cain mated with and Adam's son Seth did as she thinks that Seth would not have mated with a sister as that would have been unclean and so if there woeren't any women then who did he mate with? So are you saying that the CM were around or that Adam was the beginning of the CM? She also thinks that the CM could not be the beginning of man because they were violent according to their artifacts, such as crushed women skulls that were found.
She watches too much of the unsolved mysteries. I was telling her that I belive they mated with angels but I don't think she believes in angels. She believes God is in control of the whole universe so He allowed earth quakes, floods etc. to try to clean out the race.
She used to be a JW and I'm about to quit on her anyways. But we have had some interesting discussions and I told her I would ask you guys. Thanks; Dessert
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  #4  
Old Apr 22, '07, 11:15 am
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Default Re: Neanderthal Man?

I can't provide specific links, although they should be accessible after some creative googling, but I've read about the discoveries of sapiens sapiens and sapiens neanderthalensis hybrids. Rare but still there. So it looks like the species could mingle. Since Neanderthals are not our ancestors (except some minor heritage in a narrow percentage of our populace having inherited some Neanderthal traits), Adam and Eve would probably have had to be a different species.
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  #5  
Old Apr 22, '07, 1:42 pm
brotherhrolf brotherhrolf is offline
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Default Re: Neanderthal Man?

This is an incredibly complicated question. Holy Scripture will not provide an answer. Dessert, bottom line....Cro-magnon's didn't stop being anything other than dwellers in Europe. They have counterparts in Asia, Africa, and Australia who did not look like Cro-Magnons. Your friend is dealing with some literature which is very, very racist. I am particularly disturbed by your "genetic clean race comment" This smacks of Aryanism (i.e. Hitler et al).

The people who intially settled Australia and whose descendants live in Australia to this day exhibit many physical features which are Neandertal-like. Forty thousand years ago, they had no contact with the Cro Magnon populations in Europe. They are Homo Sapiens - just like every other single human being on the face of this planet today.

Second thing. Tell your friend to quit watching those unsolved mysteries programs. They are a) bad science and b) bad theology.
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  #6  
Old Apr 23, '07, 5:51 pm
kmcgonigle kmcgonigle is offline
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Default Re: Neanderthal Man?

Your friend may be taking the story of Adam in the bible too literally, IMHO. Adam in Hebrew actually means people, I believe. I think that Genesis depicts a story about the beginning of people, but maybe there wasn't a person named "Adam" to start it all off. For a couple decades I was a fundamentalist type christian that believed that the earth was a mere 6ooo years old, and all of the bible was literal. I have since allowed my beliefs to "evolve" and I have no problem with evolution, which is quite different from "Evolution". I believe John Paul II wrote very clearly about the church's stand on evolution. What I remember from reading it was that Intra-species evolution doesn't take away from God and creation. I have no doubt that Interspecies evolution (big E Evolution) cannot take place or you end up with lots of mules.....lol. This helped me to combine faith and reason when it came to understanding the history of man and the Earth.
Hope this helps.
Kevin
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  #7  
Old Apr 23, '07, 6:30 pm
Happy Flower Happy Flower is offline
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Default Re: Neanderthal Man?

There's plenty of Neanderthals still roaming the earth if you ask me.

Take your average American college boy for example.....
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  #8  
Old Apr 23, '07, 6:59 pm
kmcgonigle kmcgonigle is offline
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Default Re: Neanderthal Man?

Isn't there a commercial for an insurance company that many of these college boys are doing? While they may appear Neandertal, I think they are just "cavemen", and certainly conflicted about which insurance company to use.........
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  #9  
Old Apr 23, '07, 7:09 pm
kell0618 kell0618 is offline
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Default Re: Neanderthal Man?

be nice to cavemen; it isn't their fault.

Seriously, let us look at what Catholics are expected to believe about 'the beginning'. These are Dogmas of the Catholic Church.

Quote:
God the Creator
  1. All that exists outside God was, in its whole substance, produced out of nothing by God.
  2. God was moved by His goodness to create the world.
  3. The world was created for the glorification of God.
  4. The Three Divine Persons are one single, common principle of creation.
  5. God created the world free from exterior compulsion and inner necessity.
  6. God has created a good world.
  7. The world had a beginning in time.
  8. God alone created the world.
  9. God keeps all created things in existence.
  10. God, through His Providence, protects and guides all that He has created.
  11. The first man was created by God.
  12. Man consists of two essential parts - a material body and a spiritual soul.
  13. The rational soul per se is the essential form of the body.
  14. Every human being possesses an individual soul.
  15. God has conferred on man a supernatural destiny.
  16. Our first parents, before the fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace.
  17. In addition to sanctifying grace, our first parents were endowed with the preternatural gift of bodily immortality.
  18. Our first parents in Paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment.
  19. Through sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God.
  20. Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the devil.
  21. Adam's sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation but by descent.
  22. Original sin is transmitted by natural generation.
  23. In the state of original sin man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as of the preternatural gifts of integrity.
  24. Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God.
  25. In the beginning of time God created spiritual essences (angels) out of nothing.
  26. The nature of angels is spiritual.
  27. The evil spirits (demons) were created good by God; they became evil through their own fault.
  28. The secondary task of the good angels is the protection of men and care for their salvation.
  29. The devil possesses a certain dominion over mankind by reason of Adam's sin.
Call the first human whatever you wish, but the Lord our God created him. End of story.
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  #10  
Old Apr 23, '07, 7:23 pm
kmcgonigle kmcgonigle is offline
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Default Re: Neanderthal Man?

I don't take issue with the idea that there was a first person, I'm just not sure the story in Genesis was meant to be taken literally.
In addition, concerning item 24, it appears that the Church is learning more about God, and His word is being further revealed.

http://www.catholic.org/internationa...y.php?id=23842

The word of God conveys meaning and life. It is revealed to the Church throughout time. There is no way that the church of 180 A.D. could have had a complete understanding of scripture since it wasn't yet canonized. Likewise, the church of 2007 doesn't have a complete understanding, and the Holy Spirit continues It's work of revelation to our church fathers/shepherds.
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  #11  
Old Apr 24, '07, 9:42 am
dessert dessert is offline
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Default Re: Neanderthal Man?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brotherhrolf View Post
This is an incredibly complicated question. Holy Scripture will not provide an answer. Dessert, bottom line....Cro-magnon's didn't stop being anything other than dwellers in Europe. They have counterparts in Asia, Africa, and Australia who did not look like Cro-Magnons. Your friend is dealing with some literature which is very, very racist. I am particularly disturbed by your "genetic clean race comment" This smacks of Aryanism (i.e. Hitler et al).

The people who intially settled Australia and whose descendants live in Australia to this day exhibit many physical features which are Neandertal-like. Forty thousand years ago, they had no contact with the Cro Magnon populations in Europe. They are Homo Sapiens - just like every other single human being on the face of this planet today.


Second thing. Tell your friend to quit watching those unsolved mysteries programs. They are a) bad science and b) bad theology.
Next thing, I am also distrubed by your post.
You obviously think I am not capable of reasoning this thing through but thanks for your comments.

I did not think of the antisemetic statement as meaning anything but will consider her in this way as she has been exposed to a mix of religions. You probably think I am being dragged into this but I am watchful.That is why I am on this forum dahh?

She has read the Magnificat I gave her and she likes it a lot "except for the Mary part" she says.

The wiki has a lot of facts and some were true then disclaimed and now they are creating new myths so I am jus trying to get rid of some of the myths my friend has. She wants some facts and a lot of science is guess work so all I can do is show her what has been proven.

I believe the bible and whenever God created Adam every thing went towards His purpose and His will which was man have a free will so I am not disputing this. Maybe we should all write into the company and protest that Geico commercial as that is antisemetic as well.

I am not a hitler
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  #12  
Old Apr 24, '07, 9:49 am
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buffalo buffalo is online now
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Default Re: Neanderthal Man?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmcgonigle View Post
Your friend may be taking the story of Adam in the bible too literally, IMHO. Adam in Hebrew actually means people, I believe. I think that Genesis depicts a story about the beginning of people, but maybe there wasn't a person named "Adam" to start it all off. For a couple decades I was a fundamentalist type christian that believed that the earth was a mere 6ooo years old, and all of the bible was literal. I have since allowed my beliefs to "evolve" and I have no problem with evolution, which is quite different from "Evolution". I believe John Paul II wrote very clearly about the church's stand on evolution. What I remember from reading it was that Intra-species evolution doesn't take away from God and creation. I have no doubt that Interspecies evolution (big E Evolution) cannot take place or you end up with lots of mules.....lol. This helped me to combine faith and reason when it came to understanding the history of man and the Earth.
Hope this helps.
Kevin
Faith and reason cannot be opposed. Certain things have to be reconciled however.

1. Preternatural gifts
2. Eve coming from the side of Adam
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
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  #13  
Old Apr 24, '07, 4:36 pm
kmcgonigle kmcgonigle is offline
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Default Re: Neanderthal Man?

How does faith and reason conflict with Preternatural gifts? Those gifts would have been extended to all mankind, until mankind (or man) sinned against God and lost them!
I don't pretend to know and understand everything about how science and scripture relate, but I believe that there is a way to reconcile God's word and science to the point that it all makes sense to us. Many, like my mother, refuse to accept any form of evolution because of her literal interpretation of scripture. This will in no way affect her status as a christian or her ability to enter into Heaven. I simply find that my faith is INCREASED when reason reveals so many truths.
Kevin
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  #14  
Old Apr 24, '07, 4:39 pm
kmcgonigle kmcgonigle is offline
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Default Re: Neanderthal Man?

As far as the story of Eve coming from Adam's side, I find it symbolizes the closeness and relationship a man and a woman should have when they are together. I don't know if Adam came before Eve, but men discovered tools, and therefore dominated their societies, and hence, wrote scripture, but thats another discussion.
Kevin
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  #15  
Old Apr 24, '07, 5:33 pm
brotherhrolf brotherhrolf is offline
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Default Re: Neanderthal Man?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dessert View Post
Next thing, I am also distrubed by your post.
You obviously think I am not capable of reasoning this thing through but thanks for your comments.

I did not think of the antisemetic statement as meaning anything but will consider her in this way as she has been exposed to a mix of religions. You probably think I am being dragged into this but I am watchful.That is why I am on this forum dahh?

She has read the Magnificat I gave her and she likes it a lot "except for the Mary part" she says.

The wiki has a lot of facts and some were true then disclaimed and now they are creating new myths so I am jus trying to get rid of some of the myths my friend has. She wants some facts and a lot of science is guess work so all I can do is show her what has been proven.

I believe the bible and whenever God created Adam every thing went towards His purpose and His will which was man have a free will so I am not disputing this. Maybe we should all write into the company and protest that Geico commercial as that is antisemetic as well.

I am not a hitler
Dessert, you are reading far more into my statements than I had in mind. I have both a BA and an MA in anthropology and when I say something to the effect that the subject is more complex than what your friend wants to reduce it to, maybe I just might have some knowledge that your friend doesn't.

Aryanism is not just Hitler although Hitler believed in Aryanism. I don't have to go too far down the highway in my neck of the woods to find dyed-in-the-wool Aryans aka the Klan.

If you could see some of the tracts I've read left here and about, my alarm was genuine.



Neandertal



Cro-magnon.

The simple fact is that given a hair-cut and a shave, the average Neandertal could pace on the streets of New York City and be totally unremarkable far unlike the hulking simian brute depicted above.

Now, extend that same depiction to what I see depicted in Klan tracts and you will have my answer as to why I was so worried about what you may have been reading.

Wikipedia is NOT an excellent resource to use for a discussion of this magnitude. If you are truly serious about reasoning your way through this, you must read more than what you can on line. Go to your library. The libraries are filled with books discussing this topic. A lot of anthropology is "guess work" as you call it. But it is "guess work" based upon hard scientific evidence which grows by leaps and bounds every day.

I agree with Kevin. My faith is increased when I see the awesome truths revealed by the archaeological record. The world is obviously not 6,000 years old as Archbishop Usher (Anglican) stated. He determined that our planet was created 4,004 years before the Birth of Christ, on the 26th of October, at 9 o'clock in the morning. Yet we know that human DNA dates all of our ancestors to East Africa 200,000 years ago.
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