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  #1  
Old Apr 27, '07, 8:45 pm
Roman_Catholic Roman_Catholic is offline
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Default Greek word for work? Phil 2:12 and James 2:24

Hey guys

Can anyone tell me if the Greek word for "work" is the same in James 2:24 and Phil 2:12? I had a discussion with someone who said that the word "work" in the original translation was different in James than in Phil? Meaning that they were talking about two different types of works........ I didn't really follow but I am usually this way.

Also does anyone know on the web where I can go to find the the greek words for stuff like this?

Thanks
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  #2  
Old Apr 27, '07, 9:19 pm
jamannor jamannor is offline
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Default Re: Greek word for work? Phil 2:12 and James 2:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman_Catholic View Post
Hey guys

Can anyone tell me if the Greek word for "work" is the same in James 2:24 and Phil 2:12? I had a discussion with someone who said that the word "work" in the original translation was different in James than in Phil? Meaning that they were talking about two different types of works........ I didn't really follow but I am usually this way.

Also does anyone know on the web where I can go to find the the greek words for stuff like this?

Thanks
I'm not sure if this will help but I know a protestant website that will give you the meaning of the words in greek. They do use the KJV though. It's called bible tools. I just played with it a little bit but it looks like the words works are different in both passages.
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  #3  
Old Apr 27, '07, 9:43 pm
Roman_Catholic Roman_Catholic is offline
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Default Re: Greek word for work? Phil 2:12 and James 2:24

Thanks jamannor

So going by what the website jamannor provided here is what it says:

http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bi...pl?num=3388#A2

Phil 2:12

Quote:
katergazomai an emphatic form of ergazomai, signifies "to work out, achieve, effect by toil," rendered "to work" (past tense, "wrought") in Rom_1:27; Rom_2:9, RV; Rom_4:15 (the Law brings men under condemnation and so renders them subject to Divine wrath); Rom_5:3; Rom_7:8,13; Rom_15:18; 2_Cor_4:17; 2_Cor_5:5; 2_Cor_7:10 (see ergazomai), 2_Cor_7:11; 2_Cor_12:12; Php_2:12,
I couldnt find on this web page James 2:24 but James 2:22 states:

Quote:
sunergeo "to work with or together" (sun), occurs in Mark_16:20; Rom_8:28, "work together;" 1_Cor_16:16, "helpeth with;" 2_Cor_6:1, "workers together," present participle, "working together;" the "with Him" represents nothing in the Greek; James_2:22, "wrought with."
Phil 2:12 = katergazomai
James 2:22 = sunergeo

So could someone tell me the significance of this? Is there any?

Thanks
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  #4  
Old Apr 28, '07, 12:54 am
lak611 lak611 is offline
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Default Re: Greek word for work? Phil 2:12 and James 2:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman_Catholic View Post
Hey guys

Can anyone tell me if the Greek word for "work" is the same in James 2:24 and Phil 2:12? I had a discussion with someone who said that the word "work" in the original translation was different in James than in Phil? Meaning that they were talking about two different types of works........ I didn't really follow but I am usually this way.

Also does anyone know on the web where I can go to find the the greek words for stuff like this?

Thanks
The Greek word from James 2:24 is G2041
ἔργον
ergon
er'-gon
From ἔργω ergō (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.

The Greek word from Phil 2:12 is G2716
κατεργάζομαι
katergazomai
kat-er-gad'-zom-ahee
From G2596 and G2038; to work fully, that is, accomplish; by implication to finish, fashion: - cause, do (deed), perform, work (out).
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  #5  
Old Apr 28, '07, 12:56 am
lak611 lak611 is offline
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Default Re: Greek word for work? Phil 2:12 and James 2:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman_Catholic View Post
Also does anyone know on the web where I can go to find the the greek words for stuff like this?

Thanks
I use e-Sword. The Strong's Concordance, which has the Greek words, is available. Here's a link. http://www.e-sword.net/
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  #6  
Old Apr 28, '07, 11:11 pm
John Hiner John Hiner is offline
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Default Re: Greek word for work? Phil 2:12 and James 2:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman_Catholic View Post
Hey guys

Can anyone tell me if the Greek word for "work" is the same in James 2:24 and Phil 2:12? I had a discussion with someone who said that the word "work" in the original translation was different in James than in Phil? Meaning that they were talking about two different types of works........ I didn't really follow but I am usually this way.

Also does anyone know on the web where I can go to find the the greek words for stuff like this?

Thanks
Dear Roman Catholic:

The word used in James 2:24 in Greek is “ergawn,” which is the neuter genitive plural form of “ergon.” This is the word for “work.” The detailed meaning of the word in the ancient texts is available here. The root of the word is “erg” which is the root of our word “energy” and the unit of energy by the same name.

The word used in Philippians 2:12 is “katergazdesthay.” This is a verb form based on the same root, “erg.” It looks to me that the word is made up of the parts “kata” plus “erg” plus the verb ending. The form of the verb is either present indicative imperative middle-passive or present indicative middle-passive of the word “katergazdomai,” which means “to effect by working, to achieve, or accomplish.” Given the context it is more likely to be imperative, as the translators usually render it. A full account of the meanings of this word in the ancient texts is available here.

For your information the words in the Latin in these two instances are “operibus” and “operâmini,” which have virtually the same relationship as the two Greek words. The Latin forms are based on “opus” and “operor” meaning "work," the first a noun and the second a verb form.

I am not sure what your friend was getting at, but it does not look like there is a fundamental distinction between the two words to me.

For comparisons of the English, Latin and Greek versions of the Scripture, I use the Perseus tools at Tufts University. The Latin Vulgate is available here. The English is just one click away for any passage you are looking at. The Greek is a click away for the New Testament, but (sadly) they do not have a Greek version of the Old Testament. The advantage of this site is that almost every word in the text is hyperlinked to its grammatical analysis and a short definition; the definitions are then linked to full Lexicon entries for almost every word. It is a great help for those of us who have a little Latin or a little Greek.

I hope this helps.

Pax Christi tecum.

John Hiner
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  #7  
Old Apr 30, '07, 2:17 pm
Grace Seeker Grace Seeker is offline
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Default Re: Greek word for work? Phil 2:12 and James 2:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman_Catholic View Post
Hey guys

Can anyone tell me if the Greek word for "work" is the same in James 2:24 and Phil 2:12? I had a discussion with someone who said that the word "work" in the original translation was different in James than in Phil? Meaning that they were talking about two different types of works........ I didn't really follow but I am usually this way.

Also does anyone know on the web where I can go to find the the greek words for stuff like this?

Thanks
With apologies for repeating some of the same stuff you've already been told above:

Philippians 2:12 "Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation." (Douay-Rheims)

The Greek is the verb κατεργαζεσθε (katergazesthe), the present middle imperative of kategazomai meaning to work out or to finish. It is a compound word which implies linear progress toward a goal, as in, "work on to the finish". You will find the same word in different forms used in Ephesians 6:13 "having done" and James 1:3 "works", among other places.



James 2:24 "Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?" (Douay-Rheims)

The Greek is the noun εργων (ergon) preceeded by the preposition ek meaning literally "from works". ergon is used nearly 200 times in the New Testament, usually translated either "works" or "deeds" in phrases from "the work of Christ" to "their deeds were evil".

The difference between the two terms is that ergon is a noun that usually refers to some specific occupation or activity in contrast to inactivity or doing nothing. Whereas kategazomai is a verb not only implying action, but that this is an ongoing action, a process.


For an online Greek New Testament you can go to 1881 Wescott-Hort Greek New Testament from BibleGateway.com. By doing searches in both the Greek and English at the same time, you can come up with a rough form of an interlinear Greek-English New Testament.
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  #8  
Old Apr 30, '07, 4:31 pm
Daniel Marsh Daniel Marsh is offline
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Default Re: Greek word for work? Phil 2:12 and James 2:24

The greek word in Phil 2:12 is katergazomai {kat-er-gad'-zom-ahee}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 3:634,421 from 2596 and 2038
Part of Speech
v
Outline of Biblical Usage

1) to perform, accomplish, achieve

2) to work out i.e. to do that from which something results

a) of things: bring about, result in

3) to fashion i.e. render one fit for a thing

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-b...l?strongs=2716

In James 2:24 the greek word is ergon {er'-gon}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 2:635,251 from a primary (but obsolete) ergo (to work)
Part of Speech
n n
Outline of Biblical Usage

1) business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-b...l?strongs=2041

Now, a word gets its meaning from its immediate context.

So, looking at Phil 2:12 and James 2:24

Philippians 2:12

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work ( to perform, accomplish, achieve ) out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

James 2:24

Ye see then how that by works ( enterprise, industry, made by hand ) a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Both texts gives me the idea of effort ( Eph 2:10 ).

Ask him how II Peter 1, "making one's salvation sure" fits his understanding.

`
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  #9  
Old Apr 30, '07, 6:55 pm
Grace Seeker Grace Seeker is offline
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Default Re: Greek word for work? Phil 2:12 and James 2:24

My guess is that your friend is trying to get away from the idea that salvation is something we accomplish by our efforts, i.e. our work. In so far as that goes, I would agree. Our salvation is accomplished by Christ's work, not ours.

But James makes it clear that, even still,there is a connection between faith and works. In James 2 I see faith viewed as something that complements our own works and vice-versa. The contrast is not to say that faith cannot be held on its own without the complement of works, even though these works are subsequent to faith. The contrast that James sets up for us is between faith without works and works devoid of faith, neither is of any good. But he is not contrasting faith and works for they go hand-in-hand.
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