Pray and fast for conversion of James White

[justasking4]

All the scriptures you are quoting here does not prove its the catholic church. Look at the church in the NT and compare with the catholic church of today and you don't see the samething.

[Church Militant]

Originally Posted by justasking4

I'll give it some thought. However, I see people on these forumns making all kinds of claims and sometimes these discussions lead to other areas. Its not always neat and tidy

That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be, especially when the Forum Rules mandate that all posts remain on topic.

That and the fact that it makes any discussion a WHOLE lot ea sire to follow.

[justasking4]

I stand by that statement.
Quote:
Does the Catholic church have a final and infallible interpretations on all it teaches?

Do all catholics including its leaders understand all teachings of the church in the same identical way?

This is a smokescreen on your part. I can turn the statement around like this and make it appear to indict your own teachings for the same reasons. "Do all non-Catholics including its leaders understand all teachings of the church in the same identical way?" Obviously both would have to answer in the negative. However, the appeal to authority will fail among n-Cs because according to you the only authority is the Bible. A collection of writings which (according to your theology) is being accurately interpreted by every Huey, Dewey, and Louie who picks it up...without reference to what Christianity has believed for the last 2,000 years or anything else. Hence...errors abound.

Catholics however, do have a single knowledgeable authority to appeal to which can indeed offer interpretations where needed to correct errors, and heresies just as it has for 2,000 years. Try Vatican.va.

So you really don't have in reality a final authority that can tell you what a specifc verse or passage means. Having a knowledgeable authority is not the same as having an infallible authority in which your church claims. I'm not speaking just of errors but what does the verse or passage mean. All you can do is to ask various people what it means. None of them have the final and ultimate say what it means. You to must live by what you wrote above---"being accurately interpreted by every Huey, Dewey, and Louie who picks it up..."

[NathanR]

You can count on me and my wife. Friday may be a life changing event for Mr. White. He could lead so many Home if he would only take the first step to the Universal Church.

Tiber Swim Team member 00
Nathan

[Church Militant]

Originally Posted by Jason Landless

In the past I have tried to engage in discussion and debate with Roman Catholics about their doctrines and dogmas on various forums. I find it surprising that even very educated people - like the celebrated Dr. Clay Randal (MD) who runs a website in which he lambasts Protestantism - cannot mount a coherent defence of their own beliefs. When confronted with exegesis of the Bible, when even the words of popes and church doctors are simply quoted back to them, so many Roman Catholics seem to throw their arms into the air and become hostile.

Yeah right.. obviously you've never posted to me before.

[Randy Carson]

Originally Posted by justasking4

Sorry i missed this. Yes this would be essential. Infant baptism can't be supported by the scriptures since babies can't believe. Nor are there any specific cases of it. I'm well aware that catholics will say its with families but that still is not enough for proof. Lutherans and baptist would say baptism is essential though they differ on the mode and timing of the person

Off topic - but since you asked...

Old Covenant

Genesis 17:9-14
9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

Leviticus 12:3
3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised.

These texts show the circumcision of eight-day-old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant.

Connection to New Covenant

Col 2:11-12
11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Baptism is the new "circumcision" for all people of the New Covenant.


Do Infants Need Baptism?

Job 14:1-4
1 "Man born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. 2 He springs up like a flower and withers away; like a fleeting shadow, he does not endure. 3 Do you fix your eye on such a one? Will you bring him before you for judgment? 4 Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one!

Psalm 51:5
5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

We are conceived in the iniquity of sin. This shows the need for baptism from the moment of conception.


Jesus Extols Child-like Faith

Matthew 18:2-5
2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. So why would children be excluded from baptism?

(cont.)

[Randy Carson]

Jesus Receives Little Children and Infants

Matt 19:13-15
13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them. 14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

Mark 10:13-16
13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.

Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism.

Luke 18:15-17
15People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

The Church Begins to Preach Baptism

Acts 2:38-39
38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Peter did not say, “Every one of you adults”; he said, “Every one of you” without qualification and added “the promise (of the Holy Spirit) is for you and your children”. Baptism and the Holy Spirit are frequently connected throughout the Bible (cf. Ez. 36:25-27, Mt. 3:16, Jn. 3:5).

Acts 10:47-48
Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius which probably included infants and young children. There is not one word in this passage (or any other in scripture) about baptism being limited to adults.

Acts 16:15
13On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. 14One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message. 15When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home.

Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word "household" comes from the Greek word "oikos" which is a household that includes infants and children. Further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia's faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents' faith, not the children's faith.

Hope this helps.

[Randy Carson]

Early Church Fathers on Infant Baptism

Polycarp (69-155 AD)

"Eighty and six years have I served the Lord Christ" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 9: 3)

Irenaeus

"For He came to save all through means of Himself all, I say, who through Him are born again to God, infants, and children, and boys, and youths, and old men" (Against Heresies 2:22:4).

"‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).

Justin Martyr

"Many, both men and women, who have been Christ’s disciples since childhood, remain pure at the age of sixty or seventy years" (Apology 1: 15).

Hippolytus

"And first baptize the little ones; and if they can speak for themselves, they shall do so; if not, their parents or other relatives shall speak for them." (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

Origen

"The Church has received from the apostles the custom of administering baptism even to infants. For those who have been entrusted with the secrets of divine mysteries, knew very well that all are tainted with the stain of original sin, which must be washed off by water and spirit" (Commentary on Romans, 5.9).

"Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous" (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).

"The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Council of Carthage (254 AD)

"We ought not hinder any person from Baptism and the grace of God..... especially infants. . . those newly born."

Cyprian

“Should we wait until the eighth day as did the Jews in circumcision? No, the child should be baptized as soon as it is born.” (To Fidus 1: 2).

"In respect of the case of infants, which you say ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after birth, and that the law of ancient circumcision should be regarded, so that you think that one who is just born should not be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day, we all thought very differently in our council. For in this course which you thought was to be taken, no one agreed; but we all rather judge that the mercy and grace of God is not to be refused to any one born of man... Spiritual circumcision ought not to be hindered by carnal circumcision... we ought to shrink from hindering an infant, who, being lately born, has not sinned, except in that, being born after the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of the ancient death at its earliest birth, who approaches the more easily on this very account to the reception of the forgiveness of sins - that to him are remitted, not his own sins, but the sins of another" (Letter 58 to Fidus).

"As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

"If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born. For this very reason does he [an infant] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another" (ibid., 64:5).

(cont.)

[Randy Carson]

Pope Sircius

"...we desire that infants who, on account of their age, cannot yet speak, or those who, in any necessity, are in want of the water of holy Baptism, be succored with all possible speed, for fear that if those who leave this world should be deprived of the life of the Kingdom for having been refused the source of salvation which they desired, this may lead to the ruin of our souls." (Letter to Bishop Himerius, [A.D.385]).

Gregory of Nazianz

"Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, let the infant be sanctified from childhood. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith!" (Oration on Holy Baptism 40:7 [A.D. 388]).

"‘Well enough,’ some will say, ‘for those who ask for baptism, but what do you have to say about those who are still children, and aware neither of loss nor of grace? Shall we baptize them too?’ Certainly [I respond], if there is any pressing danger. Better that they be sanctified unaware, than that they depart unsealed and uninitiated" (ibid., 40:28).

John Chrysostom

"You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members" (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).

Council of Carthage (418 AD)

"If any man says that newborn children need not be baptized . . . let him be anathema."

Augustine

"The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).

"Cyprian was not issuing a new decree but was keeping to the most solid belief of the Church in order to correct some who thought that infants ought not be baptized before the eighth day after their birth. . . . He agreed with certain of his fellow bishops that a child is able to be duly baptized as soon as he is born" (Letters 166:8:23 [A.D. 412]).

"If you wish to be a Christian, do not believe, nor say, nor teach, that infants who die before baptism can obtain the remission of original sin."

"Whoever says that even infants are vivified in Christ when they depart this life without participation in His sacrament (Baptism), both opposes the Apostolic preaching and condemns the whole church which hastens to baptize infants, because it unhesitatingly believes that otherwise they cannot possibly be vivified in Christ."

"For from the infant newly born to the old man bent with age, as there is none shut out from baptism, so there is none who in baptism does not die to sin" (Enchiridion; ch. 43).

Hope this helps.

[Randy Carson]

Early Protestants on Infant Baptism

John Calvin:

8. Every one must now see that paedobaptism, which receives such strong support from Scripture, is by no means of human invention. Nor is there anything plausible in the objection, that we no where read of even one infant having been baptised by the hands of the apostles. For although this is not expressly na by the Evangelists, yet as they are not expressly excluded when mention is made of any baptised family, (Acts 16: 15, 32,) what man of sense will argue from this that they were not baptised?

Ulrich Zwingli:

On the 6th of November in the preceding year [1525], a public discussion on the subject of infant baptism had been held in the council hall, when Zwingli and his friends proposed the following theses:

“Children born of believing parents are children of God, like those who were born under the Old Testament, and consequently may receive baptism.

“Baptism under the New Testament is what circumcision was under the Old; consequently, baptism ought now to be administered to children, as circumcision was formerly.

“We cannot prove the custom of re-baptizing either by examples, texts, or arguments drawn from Scripture; and those who are re-baptized crucify Jesus Christ afresh.”

Martin Luther:

That the Baptism of infants is pleasing to Christ is sufficiently proved from His own work, namely, that God sanctifies many of them who have been thus baptized, and has given them the Holy Ghost; and that there are yet many even to-day in whom we perceive that they have the Holy Ghost both because of their doctrine and life; as it is also given to us by the grace of God that we can explain the Scriptures and come to the knowledge of Christ, which is impossible without the Holy Ghost. But if God did not accept the baptism of infants, He would not give the Holy Ghost nor any of His gifts to any of them; in short, during this long time unto this day no man upon earth could have been a Christian. Now, since God confirms Baptism by the gifts of His Holy Ghost as is plainly perceptible in some of the church fathers, as St. Bernard, Gerson, John Hus, and others, who were baptized in infancy, and since the holy Christian Church cannot perish until the end of the world, they must acknowledge that such infant baptism is pleasing to God. For He can never be opposed to Himself, or support falsehood and wickedness, or for its promotion impart His grace and Spirit. This is indeed the best and strongest proof for the simple-minded and unlearned. For they shall not take from us or overthrow this article: I believe a holy Christian Church, the communion of saints.

Hope this helps.

[Randy Carson]

For those keeping score at home that's Scripture, Early Church Fathers and Early Protestants all teaching infant baptism.

Modern Protestants say no.

What should we believe?

[Roman_Catholic]

Sorry i missed this.

No problem.

Infant baptism can't be supported by the scriptures

Says you. I think a Lutheran would strongly disagree with you here. In fact I don't "think" anything about it, a Lutheran would strongly disagree with you.

I'm well aware that catholics will say its with families but that still is not enough for proof.

This sounds like an atheist argument. Why do I get the feeling that no amount of proof would be enough for you.

Lutherans and baptist would say baptism is essential though they differ on the mode and timing of the person

Don't kid yourself. They more than differ on it, one of these denominations is being unbiblical by either baptizing or withholding baptism from children. So much for agreeing on the essentials huh?

Shall we move on to communion? End of days theology? Predestination........ Tell me when the essentials that you guys, "agree" on stop.

God bless

[elvisman]

Originally Posted by justasking4

All the scriptures you are quoting here does not prove its the catholic church. Look at the church in the NT and compare with the catholic church of today and you don't see the samething.

WHY would you EXCPECT it to look the same. The Church is always growing and changing - yet holding to the same traditions and core beliefs. NOTHING remains the same as it grows to maturity.
Everytime I hear a Protestant say that their church is closer to the early Church in the Bible I can't help but chuckle a little bit at how naiive that sounds.

[Church Militant]

Originally Posted by justasking4

So you really don't have in reality a final authority that can tell you what a specifc verse or passage means. Having a knowledgeable authority is not the same as having an infallible authority in which your church claims. I'm not speaking just of errors but what does the verse or passage mean. All you can do is to ask various people what it means. None of them have the final and ultimate say what it means. You to must live by what you wrote above---"being accurately interpreted by every Huey, Dewey, and Louie who picks it up..."

That's not true...the point is that unless a question comes up then the Church has no reason to make a definitive statement.

You cannot tell me that you have a definitive answer for every verse in the Word of God because I happen to know from years of personal experience that that is not the case. I have seen far far too many people try to wing it. (Hey, I even did at some point) The result was error almost every time and worse still without reference to the ECF and Christian history and tradition they didn't even realize that they were dead wrong.

There are more than ample Bible studies from solid Catholic sources and even if all you did was sit down and study the Catechism of the Catholic Church (paying careful attention to the footnotes) I have found it to be one of the most comprehensive Bible studies I've ever encountered.

You can assert that you have an accurate and authoritative interpretation of any given passage of the Bible, but in the end, when compared to verifiably historic writings of the early church as well as the New Testament, what you'll have is your own personal errant teachings.

[Church Militant]

Originally Posted by Randy Carson

For those keeping score at home that's Scripture, Early Church Fathers and Early Protestants all teaching infant baptism.

Modern Protestants say no.

What should we believe?

I know who I believe...