Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Non-Catholic Religions
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old May 13, '07, 3:32 am
Mannyfit75's Avatar
Mannyfit75 Mannyfit75 is offline
Veteran Member
Greeter
Prayer Warrior
Radio Club Member
Forum Supporter
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2006
Posts: 10,471
Religion: Catholic (Latin Rite)
Send a message via AIM to Mannyfit75 Send a message via MSN to Mannyfit75 Send a message via Yahoo to Mannyfit75
Lightbulb Pelagian Heresy; saved by works (not taught by the Catholic Church)

In many discussion between Catholic apologists and Protestant apologists, we seem to notice Protestants accused Catholics that we are saved by works, or by our merits by works.

Nothing is further than the truth. There is an ancient heresy called Pelagian Heresy condemned by the Council of Carthage in 416 and 418.

Pelagians states, that the human will, tempered in good deeds and rigorous asceticism, was sufficient to live a sinless life. He told his followers that right action on the part of human beings was all that was necessary for salvation. To him, the grace of God was only an added advantage; helpful, but in no way essential. Pelagius disbelieved in original sin, but said that Adam had condemned humankind through bad example, and that Christís good example offered humanity a path to salvation, not through sacrifice, but through instruction of the will.


Jerome emerged as one of the chief critics of Pelagianism, because, according to Jerome, Pelagius' view essentially denied the work of the Messiah; he personally preferring 'teacher' or 'master' to any epithet implying divine power.

The Catholic Church does not practice nor condone this heresy and professes that is the God's grace that we are saved. If any Protestants says that the Catholic Church teaches we are saved by works, take a look at the ancient heresy. The Catholic Church in 416 and 418 condemned it, and if it ever supported, the Church would err.
__________________
Call me Emmanuel, or Manny.

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ,.." - St. Ignatius of Antioch, "Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D." - Manny
  #2  
Old May 13, '07, 4:13 am
O.S. Luke O.S. Luke is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: December 25, 2004
Posts: 2,003
Religion: United Methodist
Default Re: Pelagian Heresy; saved by works (not taught by the Catholic Church)

No argument, Manny. That's Christian History & Theology 301, 1st semester seminary class.
__________________
- Protestant, from the Latin protestans, protestantis. Literally, "Standing for a witness."
  #3  
Old May 13, '07, 5:02 am
deb1 deb1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2005
Posts: 7,108
Religion: RCIA
Default Re: Pelagian Heresy; saved by works (not taught by the Catholic Church)

Quote:
Originally Posted by O.S. Luke View Post
No argument, Manny. That's Christian History & Theology 301, 1st semester seminary class.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could just argue actual facts?

But, sadly, there are a large number of people who insists that Catholics teach that we are saved by works. So, this becomes a subject that we have to address over and over again.
__________________
http://debrasrandomthoughts.blogspot.com/
Please visit my blog!!!
  #4  
Old May 13, '07, 5:40 am
Hesychios Hesychios is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 5, 2004
Posts: 11,826
Religion: Olde fashioned Christian
Smile Re: Pelagian Heresy; saved by works (not taught by the Catholic Church)

Quote:
Originally Posted by deb1 View Post
Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could just argue actual facts?

But, sadly, there are a large number of people who insists that Catholics teach that we are saved by works. So, this becomes a subject that we have to address over and over again.
Perhaps the problem is that many people act or behave as if that is what they believe.

Some people in their zealousness, do a great deal which might be misunderstood as purchasing their salvation. This is especially true if the person speaks or behaves with a sense of entitlement.

The opposite may be worse, some people believe they are saved and do nothing. They do not act on the Faith, it should (to our way of thinking) result in spontaneous outbursts of activity in the world: acts of charity, fasting and sacrifices, symbolic acts of devotion. But we do not see these things and have to wonder what kind of Faith engenders no response?

Michael
  #5  
Old May 13, '07, 9:34 am
Mannyfit75's Avatar
Mannyfit75 Mannyfit75 is offline
Veteran Member
Greeter
Prayer Warrior
Radio Club Member
Forum Supporter
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2006
Posts: 10,471
Religion: Catholic (Latin Rite)
Send a message via AIM to Mannyfit75 Send a message via MSN to Mannyfit75 Send a message via Yahoo to Mannyfit75
Default Re: Pelagian Heresy; saved by works (not taught by the Catholic Church)

Quote:
Originally Posted by O.S. Luke View Post
No argument, Manny. That's Christian History & Theology 301, 1st semester seminary class.
Yes, but how many Non-Catholic Christians who do not know about this. I know one former user who just ignore history.

I am aware that there are Protestants here who know history. The purpose of this thread is to clarify that the Catholic Church for 2,000 years have not condone the heresy of Pelagian. John Calvin accused "Papists" that the Church practices this. The Mother Church does not.

I am please that you agree that the CC doesn't teaches this.
__________________
Call me Emmanuel, or Manny.

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ,.." - St. Ignatius of Antioch, "Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D." - Manny
  #6  
Old May 13, '07, 2:13 pm
O.S. Luke O.S. Luke is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: December 25, 2004
Posts: 2,003
Religion: United Methodist
Default Re: Pelagian Heresy; saved by works (not taught by the Catholic Church)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mannyfit75 View Post
The purpose of this thread is to clarify that the Catholic Church for 2,000 years have not condone the heresy of Pelagian.
It would be more accurate to say that the Church hasn't condoned Pelagianism for 1600 years.

However, John Calvin couldn't possibly have lodged Pelagianism against the Catholic Church - Calvin was basically Augustinian in his soteriology!! Plus, Calvin quotes Augustine extensively in both is Institutes and his Commentaries, more than any other Church Father. Both of them believed in Original Sin, total depravity, the slavery of the human will, and the sovereignty of saving grace.

O+
__________________
- Protestant, from the Latin protestans, protestantis. Literally, "Standing for a witness."
  #7  
Old May 13, '07, 2:25 pm
kell0618 kell0618 is offline
Prayer Warrior
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2005
Posts: 1,260
Religion: Catholic
Send a message via AIM to kell0618
Default Re: Pelagian Heresy; saved by works (not taught by the Catholic Church)

During a recent visit to CARM.org, I was spat upon (thankfully, we have a lot of wires between computers) and was told by a person who believes the 'once saved, always saved' theory that doing kind things are 'dirty rags' to God. That the Lord finds all works offensive. Needless to say, I was unable to break the shell of this very stubborn individual. According to this person, once you accept Jesus as your savior, you pretty much can do anything you want. (Not to mention I was called a Roman, pagan, anti-Christian, etc.) Guess it is a good thing this person is saved!

Thank you, Manny for this post. It echoes important information that everyone should be aware of, but many do not know.
__________________
Dominus vobiscum

Visit my blog at Catholic Ponderings
  #8  
Old May 13, '07, 2:41 pm
Hesychios Hesychios is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 5, 2004
Posts: 11,826
Religion: Olde fashioned Christian
Smile Re: Pelagian Heresy; saved by works (not taught by the Catholic Church)

I think the teaching of Pelagius (the so-called heretic, not the Pope) has been misunderstood. It was probably never just like it is portrayed, (that being) one can earn or buy their way into heavenly bliss or salvation.

The Pelagian teaching/concept as we recall it is rightly condemned, I just don't think that is what he was teaching (for reasons that are too far afield to be examined here).

The OSAS doctrine of many Protestants is equally horrendous, a very real and widespread heresy that is a serious endangerment to those naive enough to embrace it.
  #9  
Old May 13, '07, 2:49 pm
Hesychios Hesychios is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 5, 2004
Posts: 11,826
Religion: Olde fashioned Christian
Smile Re: Pelagian Heresy; saved by works (not taught by the Catholic Church)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kell0618 View Post
...According to this person, once you accept Jesus as your savior, you pretty much can do anything you want. (Not to mention I was called a Roman, pagan, anti-Christian, etc.) Guess it is a good thing this person is saved!
It may just be that this person will be saved because of invincible ignorance!

Anyway, God can see into everyone's heart, and if the content of that heart is naturally good even a doctrine like OSAS will not permit them to stand idly by when others need help, or to feel free to hurt others, or to refuse to make simple acts of worship in their own sincere way.

God can see whether a stoney heart is using a doctrine like that as an excuse for bad behavior.
  #10  
Old May 14, '07, 7:11 am
Mannyfit75's Avatar
Mannyfit75 Mannyfit75 is offline
Veteran Member
Greeter
Prayer Warrior
Radio Club Member
Forum Supporter
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2006
Posts: 10,471
Religion: Catholic (Latin Rite)
Send a message via AIM to Mannyfit75 Send a message via MSN to Mannyfit75 Send a message via Yahoo to Mannyfit75
Default Re: Pelagian Heresy; saved by works (not taught by the Catholic Church)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hesychios View Post
I think the teaching of Pelagius (the so-called heretic, not the Pope) has been misunderstood. It was probably never just like it is portrayed, (that being) one can earn or buy their way into heavenly bliss or salvation.

The Pelagian teaching/concept as we recall it is rightly condemned, I just don't think that is what he was teaching (for reasons that are too far afield to be examined here).

The OSAS doctrine of many Protestants is equally horrendous, a very real and widespread heresy that is a serious endangerment to those naive enough to embrace it.
There are those who reject the doctrine of OSAS. I also agree with you that OSAS is dangerous and gives one self a false sense of security. One can even justify murder..since he feels that no sin past, present and future can cut him off from God's saving grace. Most Protestant apologist will tell you that the the individual was never save in the first place.

I also believe that OSAS also cheapens Jesus Christ's death on the cross.
__________________
Call me Emmanuel, or Manny.

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ,.." - St. Ignatius of Antioch, "Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D." - Manny
  #11  
Old May 14, '07, 7:12 am
Mannyfit75's Avatar
Mannyfit75 Mannyfit75 is offline
Veteran Member
Greeter
Prayer Warrior
Radio Club Member
Forum Supporter
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2006
Posts: 10,471
Religion: Catholic (Latin Rite)
Send a message via AIM to Mannyfit75 Send a message via MSN to Mannyfit75 Send a message via Yahoo to Mannyfit75
Default Re: Pelagian Heresy; saved by works (not taught by the Catholic Church)

Quote:
Originally Posted by O.S. Luke View Post
It would be more accurate to say that the Church hasn't condoned Pelagianism for 1600 years.

However, John Calvin couldn't possibly have lodged Pelagianism against the Catholic Church - Calvin was basically Augustinian in his soteriology!! Plus, Calvin quotes Augustine extensively in both is Institutes and his Commentaries, more than any other Church Father. Both of them believed in Original Sin, total depravity, the slavery of the human will, and the sovereignty of saving grace.

O+
I read Catholic Verses by David Armstrong and John Calvin accused "papists of the heresy of Pelagianism.
__________________
Call me Emmanuel, or Manny.

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ,.." - St. Ignatius of Antioch, "Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D." - Manny
  #12  
Old May 14, '07, 8:17 am
HollyDolly HollyDolly is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2006
Posts: 476
Default Re: Pelagian Heresy; saved by works (not taught by the Catholic Church)

There was a medieval heresy known as the Brothers or Brethern of the Free Spirit who had this same point of view.
I have a book on medieval heresies so would have to look up the founder,etc.The Beguines and Beghards,a group of religious men and women,mainly in Holland germany and Belgium were sometimes accused of being members.The Beghard brothers are no more,and there are a few houses of Beguines still left in Holland and Belgium.
  #13  
Old May 14, '07, 8:39 am
Hellisreal Hellisreal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2007
Posts: 4,059
Religion: Catholic but at the moment seperated from the sacraments
Default Re: Pelagian Heresy; saved by works (not taught by the Catholic Church)

I think Manny hit upon one of the top things the Catholic Church is accused of teaching that it does not. Maybe they dont know the name of the heresy to look it up in the CCC or at New Advent to check out if we teach it first before firing off the accusations. I was asked by a Protestant here recently to tell them what the Nestorian heresy was. Rather than summarize and tell her, I asked her to research it for herself, hoping this would lead her to ask herself about the countless other heresies she never knew the names of.
I know there are many knowledgeable Protestant posters here though. And they dont make such accusations.
  #14  
Old May 14, '07, 1:07 pm
manualman manualman is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2004
Posts: 10,983
Religion: Catholic - no buts.
Default Re: Pelagian Heresy; saved by works (not taught by the Catholic Church)

The charge of Pelagianism is all too often TRUE against members of the catholic church. It is a consequence of poor catechesis and/or lack of interest on the part of the individual.

As usual, Truth in the matter appears to be upon a steep hilltop. Carelessness on the part of the faithful inevitably leads to one falling off the hill into either the valley of Pelagianism or the valley of 'cheap grace' (OSAS). Keeping the correct belief requires the same amount of Grace that peforming actual good works does!
  #15  
Old May 14, '07, 2:27 pm
Stylteralmaldo Stylteralmaldo is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 2, 2004
Posts: 2,149
Religion: Catholic (Latin Rite)
Default Re: Pelagian Heresy; saved by works (not taught by the Catholic Church)

Hey! I was recently accused falsely of believing Pelagianism. However, I corrected the person by pointing out what I actually said in my post, then he apologized.

Since the encounter, I did some research on the topic to better understand why he would come to such a conclusion and it appears that John Calvin believed the Catholic Church fell into a semi-Pelagian heresy.

But of course, Catholicism also does not teach semi-Pelagianism. Here's essentially the key differences between the two:

Pelagianism: Grace not necessary to obtain salvation.

Semi-Pelagianism: The grace of Baptism is necessary, but we much reach out to it without the assitence of Grace to obtain it.

I'm not certain if John Calvin believed the Catholic Church fell into the exact form of the Semi-Pelagian heresy, or a variant of it.
__________________
Today, I want to be transformed, whole and entire, into the love of Jesus and to offer myself, together with Him, to the Heavenly Father. - St. Faustina Kowalska

When the Lord places you somewhere and you agree to do something he has asked you to do, you are happy. - Pope Francis
Closed Thread

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Non-Catholic Religions

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Saved by grace through faith and works (help me defend it) GandalfTheWhite Apologetics 12 May 9, '07 10:58 pm
Are Baptists taught that Constantine founded the Catholic Church? Mannyfit75 Non-Catholic Religions 11 Feb 13, '07 3:12 am
Know you are saved? I know the Catholic Church is Christ's Chruch MariaG Non-Catholic Religions 19 Mar 7, '06 4:06 pm
What about Ephesians 2:8 that we are saved by grace and not works? Schmitty Ask an Apologist 1 Oct 12, '05 10:53 am
Fox News: Catholic Church Taught That Jews Should Suffer Hap Apologetics 6 Apr 3, '05 10:16 am



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8039Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: Mary Virginia
4827CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: mountee
4292Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: FootStool
4027OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: fencersmother
3812SOLITUDE
Last by: beth40n2
3373Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3184Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: libralion
3149Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
2962For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: SERVENT FOR GOD
2698Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 9:09 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2013, Catholic Answers.