Help w/ transubstanciation

[evafrisch]

Where can I find srciptural proof or transubstanciation?

[davidv]

Originally Posted by evafrisch

Where can I find srciptural proof or transubstanciation?

John Chapter 6

[NotWorthy]

Look at another facet of John chapter 6:
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains (also translated as "abides") in me and I in him.

You will not see that term "abides" or "remains" until John chapter 15, which is the Last Supper discourse. Now that the Apostles have eaten His Body and drank His Blood, Jesus tells them:
Remain in me, as I remain in you...

Jesus is in the bread and the wine, and when we receive communion, Jesus abides in our souls in a most intimate way!!!!

[pippin]

I Corinthians 11:23-29. Note especially verse 27: "Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy maner shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord." If it's not really the body and blood of our Lord how can you be guilty of "the body and blood of our Lord"?

[NotWorthy]

Verse 29 is just as forceful:
For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

[Todd Easton]

transubstantiation: change of one substance into another.

Jesus' first public miracle at the wedding feast at Cana, when he changed water into wine, was a transubstantiation. (John 2:1-11)

[NotWorthy]

Originally Posted by Todd Easton

transubstantiation: change of one substance into another.

Jesus' first public miracle at the wedding feast at Cana, when he changed water into wine, was a transubstantiation. (John 2:1-11)

Not quite, because the "accidents" changed as well. You could look at the water and see wine.

In Transubstantiation, the "accidents" remain the same, so the bread still looks like bread and tastes like bread.

P.S. I certainly hope I'm using the term "accidents" correctly!!!

[NoelFitz]

I May be a bit cheeky, as I am new here. However I do think this query is not appropriate for this forum.

Q: Where can I find srciptural proof or transubstanciation?
A: nowhere.

There is no proof of Transubstanciation = transubstantiation
in scripture. In fact there is no proof of it anywhere. If one believes in transubstantiation, the belief is based on faith.

Ardinal Arinze has said
This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation" (Council of Trent, DS 1642; also CCC, 1376). http://www.adoremus.org/1203Arinze.html

I write as an ordinary Catholic, who is a chemist. Change nowadays is discussed in terms of atoms remaining the same, but altering how they are connected. Valence bond theory and molecular orbital theories rationalize these changes. In earlier time in changes it was considered that form changes, but the matter remains the same. This theory, the hylomorphic theory, was used to rationalize the change of the bread and wine into Christ.

The human writers of the NT never heard of transubstantiation. They were not philosophers. The Church developed its interest in philosophy and speculative theology after Justin Martyr (c. 160 CE), whose feast we celebrated a few days ago.

[joecap]

http://www.michaeljournal.org/eucharist3.htm

Even better than Scriptural proof, this is Physical proof.

[Todd Easton]

Originally Posted by NotWorthy

Not quite, because the "accidents" changed as well. You could look at the water and see wine.

In Transubstantiation, the "accidents" remain the same, so the bread still looks like bread and tastes like bread.

P.S. I certainly hope I'm using the term "accidents" correctly!!!

Since the OP did not define which transubstantiation she had in mind, my response was geared to the more general definition of transubstantiation, defined by the dictionary as "change of one substance into an other." Of course, the transubstantiation of bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus at the Last Supper (Matthew 26, Mark 14, Luke 22) and at subsequent celebrations of the Lord's Supper (1 Corinthians 10 and 11) is clearly the most important transubstantiation mentioned in the Bible.

The transubstantiation of water into wine by Jesus at the wedding at Cana (John 2) prefigured his later transubstantiation of bread and wine into his own body and blood at his Last Supper.

Another example of transubstantiation in the Bible was when Moses' staff changed into a snake. (Exodus 7:8-13)

These last mentioned examples of transubstantiation establish a biblical precedent for the transubstantiation that was to take place at the Last Supper.

[NotWorthy]

Originally Posted by Todd Easton

Since the OP did not define which transubstantiation she had in mind, my response was geared to the more general definition of transubstantiation, defined by the dictionary as "change of one substance into an other." Of course, the transubstantiation of bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus at the Last Supper (Matthew 26, Mark 14, Luke 22) and at subsequent celebrations of the Lord's Supper (1 Corinthians 10 and 11) is clearly the most important transubstantiation mentioned in the Bible.

The transubstantiation of water into wine by Jesus at the wedding at Cana (John 2) prefigured his later transubstantiation of bread and wine into his own body and blood at his Last Supper.

Another example of transubstantiation in the Bible was when Moses' staff changed into a snake. (Exodus 7:8-13)

These last mentioned examples of transubstantiation establish a biblical precedent for the transubstantiation that was to take place at the Last Supper.

Thanks for that. I learned something! My day is complete!!!!

[thistle]

John 6:48-61


48 I am the bread of life.
49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;
50 this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?"
53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54 Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."
59 These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
60 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?"
61 Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you?

[savedsinner]

You can't find it in the bible, because the bible prohibits the drinking of blood. And God would not ask you to sin.

[NotWorthy]

Originally Posted by savedsinner

You can't find it in the bible, because the bible prohibits the drinking of blood. And God would not ask you to sin.

Browse through John Chapter 6, one more time, if you will.

[savedsinner]

Originally Posted by NotWorthy

Browse through John Chapter 6, one more time, if you will.

Jesus is speaking symbolically here, and the only people that believed him to be speaking literally are the ones that left him, for they knew that God prohibits the drinking of blood.
If Jesus had been speaking literally here, he would have explained it to his followers just like he does in many other places in scripture. The Church fathers also believed the way I do, because they all talk about the "spiritual" real presence of the bread and wine. They did not believe that it really was his blood and body in a real sense but in a spiritual sense, just like scripture tells us: where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in their midst.