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  #376  
Old Sep 23, '08, 9:31 am
snhs snhs is offline
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Default Re: Female Altar Servers

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasterJoy View Post
Altar serving isn't a leadership role. It isn't the priesthood. It is not the altar server who acts in the person of Christ, but the priest only. If it were otherwise, it would not be appropriate that unconfirmed Catholics, who have not even been fully initiated, fulfill that role.

....

At any rate, as long as we're throwing humility into the mix: if Rome says it is permissible, it is not for the laity to say it is not permissible. We all should remember to whom the power to bind and loose has been given.
Catholics do not need to be acting in persona Christi in order to have a leadership role. Altar boys have lead by example both literally and figuratively for centuries.

The facts are that the change to allowing Altar girls, albeit only if the Bishop and Priest decided to allow them, was far more of a concession to Liberal groups within the Church than anything else. They say that actions speak louder than words, neither Pope John Paul II nor Pope Benedict allow Altar girls to serve in Rome. So to conclude I quite agree that we should in all humility follow where the Pope leads, to a point where no girls serve at the Altar.
  #377  
Old Sep 23, '08, 4:36 pm
Lovemyfaith Lovemyfaith is offline
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Default Re: Female Altar Servers

Oh no! 20 some odd pages and this over year old thread is back again.
Every time it pops up I re-read all the posts and see the same good points brought up on both sides. I can only assume parishes that see religious vocations forming from their server program have a philosophy integrated in that program that naturally leads to those vocations. That philosophy has a lot more to do with traditional catholic teachings and values. I think it is hard to translate that philosophy into mainstream Catholics, who may for the most part be trying to fit their faith into thier lives rather than the other way around. In such a busy world, I find myself guilty of that more than I would like to admit.
I think people who do feel strongly about serving leading to priestly vocations should make themselves available to their pastor to lead the serving program. If your parish has an outstanding server program, perhaps there is a nearby parish that could use some help.
Of course, don't be surprised if your help is met with a "thanks but that won't work here" as most pastors try to walk the fine line of keeping the peace while keeping the faith.
  #378  
Old Sep 24, '08, 9:15 am
EasterJoy EasterJoy is offline
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Default Re: Female Altar Servers

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Originally Posted by whatevergirl View Post
Brava Great post.
While I wouldn't have an issue with altar serving suddenly becoming exclusive to boys only--I can see it being a benefit to a boy considering the priesthood--having girls serve is not detrimental to mass. It saddens me when people think so.
If altar serving is limited to boys, it should be made unequivocally clear that it has NOTHING to do with girls lacking any sort of fitness for the position but rather has to do with encouraging boys into the priesthood. We don't want to particularly encourage those males who have an inordinate desire to be thought of as better than everyone else, after all. Once encouraged, that is a tough habit to break, and entirely contrary to the lesson of the washing of the Feet....a lesson in which the Apostles were taught in no uncertain terms that "women's work" or "servants' work" was not beneath them!

If non-serving children are to be emblematic of the laity while those who serve are emblematic of the clergy, then let the relationship always be one of the servers putting their own needs after the needs of the children not given the privelege of serving. This idea that everyone who does something remarkable in service of the Church should be applauded and encouraged to feel proud of themselves is not going to fill the convents, the monasteries, or the seminaries, nor does it serve the spiritual well-being of the servers. Kids need to know that we serve because we are beloved of God, and not the other way around.
  #379  
Old Sep 24, '08, 9:19 am
whatevergirl whatevergirl is offline
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Default Re: Female Altar Servers

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasterJoy View Post
If altar serving is limited to boys, it should be made unequivocally clear that it has NOTHING to do with girls lacking any sort of fitness for the position but rather has to do with encouraging boys into the priesthood. We don't want to particularly encourage those males who have an inordinate desire to be thought of as better than everyone else, after all. Once encouraged, that is a tough habit to break, and entirely contrary to the lesson of the washing of the Feet....a lesson in which the Apostles were taught in no uncertain terms that "women's work" or "servants' work" was not beneath them!

If non-serving children are to be emblematic of the laity while those who serve are emblematic of the clergy, then let the relationship always be one of the servers putting their own needs after the needs of the children not given the privelege of serving. This idea that everyone who does something remarkable in service of the Church should be applauded and encouraged to feel proud of themselves is not going to fill the convents, the monasteries, or the seminaries, nor does it serve the spiritual well-being of the servers. Kids need to know that we serve because we are beloved of God, and not the other way around.

Um, ok. Not sure why this was directed to me, but ok.

I agree.
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  #380  
Old Sep 24, '08, 9:32 am
EasterJoy EasterJoy is offline
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Default Re: Female Altar Servers

Quote:
Originally Posted by snhs View Post
Catholics do not need to be acting in persona Christi in order to have a leadership role. Altar boys have lead by example both literally and figuratively for centuries.

The facts are that the change to allowing Altar girls, albeit only if the Bishop and Priest decided to allow them, was far more of a concession to Liberal groups within the Church than anything else. They say that actions speak louder than words, neither Pope John Paul II nor Pope Benedict allow Altar girls to serve in Rome. So to conclude I quite agree that we should in all humility follow where the Pope leads, to a point where no girls serve at the Altar.
Those were the same centuries when the laity were largely kept off of the altar entirely. I don't have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with there being a recognition of the obvious fact that gender does matter, particularly under ritual circumstances. There is hardly a religion in the world that doesn't get that. Even where "priestesses" have been used, a priest is not a priestess and a priestess is not a priest. Certainly Rome and the bishops have the perogative to discern the proper place for gender-based divisions in role for a given time and place.

I do have a problem with the idea that women, and the entire laity by extension, are second-class Christians, who are not priests because they are somehow less fit to serve God. Our Lady, Model of Christians and Queen of Heaven, shows unequivocally that this is not so. She shows what immense power obedience and submission can have.

So when there are arguments over whether or not service at the altar should be limited to boys, let us at least not slip into arguments that fly in the face of both Scriptures and Catholic theology concerning the nature of the laity and the priesthood and the role of women in the Church. As this thread demonstrates, going to those false arguments makes the argument against allowing this service to girls into an argument for why justice demands that it must be allowed.
  #381  
Old Sep 24, '08, 9:37 am
EasterJoy EasterJoy is offline
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Default Re: Female Altar Servers

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Originally Posted by whatevergirl View Post
Um, ok. Not sure why this was directed to me, but ok.

I agree.
I need to be more clear when I'm responding in agreement. I forget that most replies are counter-arguments on this forum!

I only meant that if serving was going to be limited to boys, as you suggested that it rightly might, that the reasons must be made very clear. It is too easy to give scandal on this matter, and to give the impression that there are types of injustice that are part of our faith, when that is not true.
  #382  
Old Sep 24, '08, 9:41 am
EasterJoy EasterJoy is offline
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Default Re: Female Altar Servers

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Originally Posted by spellinggirl View Post
I agree with all that you said. I was not trying to make it into a debate; I do not think women should be priests. I was simply trying to point out that Wise Queen's ideas of a woman's "place" under a man's "place" was slightly misguided and more than a little sexist.
Yes, I agree. Not every reason given in support of restricting a role within the Church to males or females is a legitimate reason. That there are bad arguments in their favor doesn't make the restrictions themselves illegitimate, either.
  #383  
Old Sep 24, '08, 9:54 am
marietta marietta is offline
 
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Default Re: Female Altar Servers

Wise Queen and Carolinagirl411:

"Your daughter can go help the poor, reach out to the neglected child on the block, pray for sinners, bring her friends to church... etc... all to serve Christ earnestly."

Have you considered encouraging her participation in an abortion protest?

marietta
  #384  
Old Sep 24, '08, 10:20 am
Cristiano Cristiano is offline
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Default Re: Female Altar Servers

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasterJoy View Post
........I do have a problem with the idea that women, and the entire laity by extension, are second-class Christians, who are not priests because they are somehow less fit to serve God.........
I think that you have spent some of your time reading "Lumen Gentium"
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  #385  
Old Sep 24, '08, 11:08 am
EasterJoy EasterJoy is offline
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Default Re: Female Altar Servers

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Originally Posted by Cristiano View Post
I think that you have spent some of your time reading "Lumen Gentium"
This would be a bad thing?

It is like with preaching. There is all this rancor because the laity "aren't allowed to preach", and therefore, that women aren't allowed to preach, when the truth is that the laity aren't allowed to give homilies. For some reason, there is this impression that homilies are the only preaching that is supposed to be going on in the Church! If that is the only preaching that is going on in the Church, if only priests and religious "have vocations", we may as well close up shop. We're not going to convert anybody to hand themselves entirely over to Christ, not even the laity we succeed in getting baptized.
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