A question for Ahmadi Muslims..

[dolphinlove]

Hi Everyone,
I know we have talked a lot about the ahmadi on here quite a lot, but there is one thing im curious about...
Do normal mainstream muslims also believe that Jesus died in India? Or is this just part of the ahmadi?
Thanks..

[BelFarfalla]

Originally Posted by dolphinlove

Hi Everyone,
I know we have talked a lot about the ahmadi on here quite a lot, but there is one thing im curious about...
Do normal mainstream muslims also believe that Jesus died in India? Or is this just part of the ahmadi?
Thanks..

4:156-159 "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them."

Some reading on the topic.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/crucified.htm

[dolphinlove]

Originally Posted by BelFarfalla

4:156-159 "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them."

Some reading on the topic.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/crucified.htm

Thanks Bel..

[PauseBreak]

Well for one thing most Muslims look at Ahmadiyya like Chirstians look at mormons as a cult.

Also their is two groups of Ahmadiyya one thinks Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a prophet and one that does not Both follow Maulana Hakeem Noor-ud-Din but then they break.

1.The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
Hakeem Noor-ud-Din
Mirza Basheer-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad
Mirza Nasir Ahmad
Mirza Masroor Ahmad

The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community believes Mirza is a Prophet.

2.The Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement for the Propagation of Islam
Hakeem Noor-ud-Din
Maulana Muhammad Ali
Maulana Sadr-ud-Din
Saeed Ahmad Khan
Dr.Asghar Hameed
Dr.Abdul Karim Saeed Pasha

The Lahore Ahamdis believe Muhammad is the last Prophet and that Mirza never said he was a Prophet and they back this up by Mirza himself.

See link http://www.muslim.org/noclaim/affirms.htm

Ahmadis mixed up and need Jesus Christ just like all followers of false Religions

[BrianK2007]

The 'Ahmadiyya' are not monotheistic, and are not considered Muslims by the greater Islamic community. This is second hand information from a conversation I had about four years ago with my best friend who's parents are 'Ahmadiyya.' And from what he told me they are VERY much like Mormons.

We only talked about religion twice, we both believe in God and have a fear of nuns (he went to a Catholic school.)

[paarsurrey]

Hi
First I will give the correct meaning of the verses 4:156-159 . One must know that the Quran was revealed in Arabic on the heart of Muhammad, it has the same one text in Arabic whatever the denomination. Translations are not regarded as Word of God by any Muslim, the translations are regarded an attempt to understand the meaning:
The Holy Quran : Chapter 4: Al-Nisa'
[4:154] The people of the Book ask thee to bring down upon them a Book from heaven. They asked Moses a greater thing than this. They said, 'Show us Allah openly.' Thereupon a destructive punishment overtook them because of their transgression. Then they took the calf for worship after clear Signs had come to them, but We pardoned even that. And We gave Moses a manifest authority.
[4:155] And We raised high above them the Mount while making a covenant with them, and We said to them, 'Enter the gate submissively,' and We said to them, 'Transgress not in the matter of the Sabbath.' And We took from them a firm covenant.
[4:156] So, for their breaking the covenant, and their denial of the Signs of Allah, and their seeking to slay the Prophets unjustly, and their saying: 'Our hearts are wrapped up in covers,' - nay, but Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not but little -
[4:157] And for their disbelief and for their uttering against Mary a grievous calumny;
[4:158] And for their saying, 'We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;' whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it.
[4:159] On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[4:160] And there is none among the People of the Book but will continue to believe in it before his death; and on the Day of Resurrection, he (Jesus) shall be a witness against them.
[4:161] So, because of the transgression of the Jews, We forbade them pure things which had been allowed to them, and also because of their hindering many men from Allah's way,
[4:162] And because of their taking interest although they had been forbidden it, and because of their devouring peoples wealth wrongfully. And We have prepared for those of them, who disbelieve, a painful punishment.
[4:163] But those among them who are firmly grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what has been sent down to thee and what was sent down before thee, and especially those that observe Prayer and those who pay the Zak›t and those who believe in Allah and the Last Day. To these We will surely give a mighty reward.
[4:164] Surely, We have sent revelation to thee, as We sent revelation to Noah and the Prophets after him; and We sent revelation to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and his children and to Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and We gave David a Book.
[4:165] And We sent some Messengers whom We have already mentioned to thee and some Messengers whom We have not mentioned to thee - and to Moses Allah spoke at great length -
Unquote
Thanks

[paarsurrey]

Hi
The PromisedMessiahImamMahid has discussed/explained the meaning of verses Quran- Surah An-Nisa 4:156-159 in the book "Jesus in India", I give here an excerpt from it for everybody's understanding:
"The arguments which I am now going to set out, might seem to be useless so far as they are meant for Christians, for these people are not bound by what the Holy Quran or the Hadith say on this question; but I state them because I wish Christians to know of a miracle of our Holy Quran and Holy Prophet; to tell them that the truth which has been discovered after hundreds of years has already been proclaimed by our Holy Prophet and Holy Quran. Accordingly, I set down some of it below.
Almighty God says in the Holy Quran: The Jews neither murdered Jesus, not did they kill him on the Cross; no, they only suspected that Jesus had died on the Cross; they did not have proof which could have convinced and satisfied them that Jesus (on whom be peace) had really died on the Cross.

In these verses Almighty God states that although it is true that Jesus was apparently placed on the Cross, and that they were determined to kill him; yet, it is wrong for Jews and Christians to suppose that Jesus did really die on the Cross. No, God created circumstances which saved Jesus from death on the Cross. Now, if one were just, one must say that what the Holy Quran had said against Jews and Christians turned out ultimately to be true. Investigations of a very high standard to-day have proved that Jesus had really been saved from death on the Cross. A study of the records shows that the Jews have never been able to reply to the question: How was it that Jesus died within two or three hours when his bones were not broken?

This has led the Jews to put in another plea -- that they killed Jesus by the sword, whereas the ancient history of the Jews does not show that Jesus was killed by the sword. The majesty and power of the Divine Being made it dark in order that Jesus might be saved. There was an earthquake. Pilate's wife saw a vision. The Sabbath night was about to fall, when it was improper to let a crucified body remain on the Cross. The magistrate, because of the terrible dream, became disposed towards the release of Jesus. All this was brought about simultaneously by God to save Jesus. Jesus himself was made to go into a swoon that he might be taken for dead. Through terrible signs like the earthquake, etc. there were produced in the Jews cowardice, and fear, and also fear of heavenly punishment. There was also the fear lest the corpses should remain on their crosses during the Sabbath night. Again, the Jews, seeing Jesus in a swoon, thought that he was dead. It was dark. And there was an earthquake and great excitement. They also became anxious about their homes -- how must the children be feeling in that darkness and earthquake? There was also a terror in their hearts that if this man was a liar and a Kafir, as they thought he was, why were mighty signs manifested at the moment of his suffering -- signs which had not been manifested before. They were so upset that they no longer were in a position to satisfy themselves whether Jesus had really died, or what exactly his condition was. What had come about, however, was a Divine Design to save Jesus. This is hinted at in the verse... i.e., the Jews did not kill Jesus -- God made them believe that they had killed him. This circumstance encourages the righteous to place great trust in God, that God can save His servants as He pleases."
Unquote
Thanks

[paarsurrey]

Hi
I was replying queries of BelFarfall vide his post # 2 and of dolphinlove vide post # 3 on this thread, from Quran, the primary and foremost source of Muslims. I gave the true meaning of the verses pointed out by the above members, and then interpretation of the verses as given by the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908, here we continue his argument further:
http://www.alislam.org/library/books...india/ch2.html
“And the Holy Quran contains also the verse: His name shall be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, honoured in this world and in the hereafter, and of those who are granted nearness to God. This means that not only here will Jesus have honour and eminence, and enjoy a greatness in the sight of ordinary people; but also in the hereafter. Now, it is evident that Jesus was not honoured in the land of Herod and Pilate. He was, on the contrary, disgraced. The suggestion that he would be honoured during his second coming to this earth is baseless. It is against the divine books and the eternal divine law of nature. There is moreover no proof of it. The truth, however, is that as Jesus, having had his release from those accursed people, came to the land of the Punjab and honoured it with his visit, God gave him great eminence -- here he met the ten lost tribes of Israel. It seems that most of these Israelites had adopted Buddhism and some had degenerated into idolatry of a very low kind. But with the coming here of Jesus, most of them returned to the right path; and as there was an exhortation in the teaching of Jesus to believe in the coming Prophet, the ten tribes who came to be known in this land as Afghans and Kashmiris ultimately all became Muslims. So Jesus came with great honour to this land. There has been discovered recently a coin in this very land of the Punjab, on which is inscribed the name of Jesus (on whom be peace) in Pali characters. This coin belongs to the time of Jesus. This shows that Jesus came to this land and received kingly honour; the coin must have been issued by a king who had become a follower of Jesus. Another coin has been found with the figure of an Israelite. It seems that this too is the figure of Jesus. The Holy Quran also has a verse which says that Jesus was blessed by God wherever he went... So these coins show that he received great honour from God, and that he did not die until he had kingly honour.
Likewise the Holy Quran contains the verse: O Jesus! I shall clear thee of these charges; I shall prove thy innocence and shall remove the accusations brought against thee by Jews and Christians.
A great prophecy this, which means that the Jews alleged that Jesus, having been crucified, became (God forbid) accursed, and thus forfeited the love of God, that Jesus' heart, as the word 'curse' necessitates, turned away from God; that is, he came to hate Him. His heart became enveloped by a thick veil of darkness. It came to love evil and to shun good. It broke away from God and came under the sway of Satan. There was enmity between him and God! The same accusation -- that he was accursed -- was brought by Christians, but Christians, in addition, foolishly combine two contrary and opposite positions; they say Jesus was the Son of God, but they also call him accursed, and what is more, they admit that one who is accursed is the Son of Darkness and the Devil or is the Devil himself. So, these were the dirty charges brought against Jesus; the prophecy contained in the Quran however points out that there was to be a time when God would clear Jesus of these charges. This is that time. “
Unquote
Thanks

[paarsurrey]

Hi

I do not see my friends BelFarfalla and Dolphinlove for so many days.

Are they alright?

May GodAllahYHWH bless them both!

Thanks

[dolphinlove]

Originally Posted by paarsurrey

Hi

I do not see my friends BelFarfalla and Dolphinlove for so many days.

Are they alright?

May GodAllahYHWH bless them both!

Thanks

Alive and well thanks