Protestant Apologist James White and sola scriptura... Why does he always now dance around the issue?

[Guardian]

Originally Posted by NPS

Sorry, Guard, but I couldn't resist giving you a hard time about this---
At least we haven't bought all of his books, listened to his debates, and studied his blog.

Well, there are two reasons I did such:

1. Initially, I took him seriously, so I bought all his material. Obviously, that has changed after studying his material.

2. He's entertaining. Maybe I have a sick humor, but I get a huge kick out of reading his blog and listening to his broadcast. He's so obnoxious I get some good chuckles. He's amazing, simply amazing in that regard!

[mtr01]

Originally Posted by Ani Ibi

Patton's bid for points:

Letter to Pope Benedict

Patton's been here and here btw.

Oh boy, do I remember him...and those long "debates" we had with him (I'm surprised I have any hair left)

[Guardian]

Uh-oh!! Mr. White is callin' me out! He *updated* his blog and stated:

Once in a while it is worth "turning up the lights" on the kind of mindset and activity that passes for day in, day out Roman Catholic thought and speech as found in such places as the Catholic Answers Forums. It is especially useful when all you hear is how "mean" the non-Catholics are! Remember, I make myself available for two hours a week, live, call-in, on The Dividing Line, so if these folks really did believe I am so clearly in error, why wouldn't they wish to demonstrate it? I would love for "Guardian," author of the following swipe, to give me a call and lay out his case, but, we all know how often folks on the CA forums make claims like these and then discover that they have to have their cat's teeth flossed during the DL...every DL...every time it is on:

Let's analyze it:

Once in a while it is worth "turning up the lights" on the kind of mindset and activity that passes for day in, day out Roman Catholic thought and speech as found in such places as the Catholic Answers Forums.

First off, I'm not Roman Catholic.

Remember, I make myself available for two hours a week, live, call-in, on The Dividing Line, so if these folks really did believe I am so clearly in error, why wouldn't they wish to demonstrate it?

Because I don't care? Why would I wish to demonstrate it is a better question?

I would love for "Guardian," author of the following swipe, to give me a call and lay out his case, but, we all know how often folks on the CA forums make claims like these and then discover that they have to have their cat's teeth flossed during the DL...every DL...every time it is on

Hmmn, should I fall for the trap? Will I call up Mr. White, only to have him hang up on me like he did crimsoncatholic, and then, once crimsoncatholic couldn't respond, bash him for saying he was laughing at God's Word, when it was obviously not the case?

Or will I call in to give my specific examples, and then Mr. White, knowing where I'm headed, try to steer the conversation into satispassio or the bodily assumption of Mary?

I may have to wipe the dust off his books once again. How many examples of dishonesty or lack of scholarship should I come up with? Is 10 good enough?

I'll have to pray about this. I think the real question is, will this benefit anyone if I do call in, and will it glorify God?

[NPS]

Originally Posted by Guardian

Well, there are two reasons I did such:

1. Initially, I took him seriously, so I bought all his material. Obviously, that has changed after studying his material.

2. He's entertaining. Maybe I have a sick humor, but I get a huge kick out of reading his blog and listening to his broadcast. He's so obnoxious I get some good chuckles. He's amazing, simply amazing in that regard!

I hope you know I was just kidding you. I'm glad you went through so much of his stuff----I've only seen a tiny bit of his work so I'm glad you're around to help out. My friend MM says the same sort of thing--he was surprised to see how easy he was to refute.

I read Sungenis taking White's Corinthians argument apart bit by bit---it was enough to give me a good idea about the guy.

[Calvinator]

Originally Posted by Guardian

Why? That would be giving him the time of day, something I said I'm not willing to do anymore. I read his stuff, listened to his debates...I'm not going to waste any more time with him, at least not anytime soon.

However, there is one reason why I might do it, and that is to help the people that listen to him hear the other side. But I have a feeling that the people that take him seriously are probably delusional or plain foolish.

Moreover, he has too much advantage on his OWN internet broadcast, anyway. He'd probably hang up on me once I start showing how shallow and unscholarly he is.

Maybe when I finish my studies and have my book published I may make more significant strides in documenting and responding to his claims specifically, perhaps. I've already proved his unworthiness in my mind, it would take a bit more effort to present a formal response to prove it to others. Is he really that popular to merit my precious time? I highly doubt it.

You seem to have a touch of the "keyboard warror" syndrome. I thought he might help you get over it.

[Ani Ibi]

Originally Posted by cray

I'm not a catholic or protestant but I have been studying these issues for a while and as far as I am aware James White doesn't identify himself as a "Evangelical leader". He says that the term evangelical has taken on a very broad meaning today.

For interests sake can you please give me a link to White's teaching where he makes this more general definition, please? Thank you.

And yes I am very well aware of the shuffling of language which is going on in the wake of Beckwith's defection. The term evangelical has taken on a very broad political meaning.

Originally Posted by cray

He holds a position in a reformed baptist church and, while i cant speak for him, I don't think he loses too much sleep when people outside of his church such as Francis Beckwith cross the tiber.

Did you read the article to which I linked? White may not have lost much sleep but he certainly seemed very upset with Beckwith for crossing the Tiber.

A woman asked a question of the panel. "Why did you write 'the Bible alone' in the statement of faith?"... Roger Nicole rose, slowly, and made his way to the podium. He looked out at the lady and said, "Because we didn't want any Roman Catholics in the group." He then turned around and went back to his seat. While most sat in stunned silence, I and a friend with me broke into wild applause.

Was White applauding when Beckwith took his swim? Moreover, if it was no big deal, then why the ripples (read tidal waves) which are rolling across the Protestant horizon?

Originally Posted by cray

For instance, Mr. Patton mentioned on the DL that protestantism has no structure because of people like Benny Hinn.

Again, a link would be very helpful. Thank you.

Originally Posted by cray

James said that his church does have structure and binny hinn is not a member of it.

Link? Thank you.

Originally Posted by cray

Also, from what i've seen James White is very kind to his opponents.

He has been very unkind to Catholics, if accurately referring to what the Catholic Church actually teaches is any measure of kindness. But it is encouraging to learn that he does not count us among his opponents. Perhaps this is an example of the 'softening of language' to which Mr Patton refers -- in my view rather ironically, given the extraordinary excesses to which goes in his Letter to Pope Benedict.

[Guardian]

Originally Posted by Calvinator

You seem to have a touch of the "keyboard warror" syndrome. I thought he might help you get over it.

I don't know what a "keyboard warror" is, perhaps you meant "keyboard warriror?" Nonetheless, if you desire for me to call him up, then give me solid reasons why I should spend time going back through and documenting his errors? Who will it benefit? Most Catholics already know his lack of honesty and scholarship, and the people that listen to him will probably blow it off.

Which is why my first post in this thread was basically, "why give him the time of day?"

[Ani Ibi]

Originally Posted by Guardian

Uh-oh!! Mr. White is callin' me out!

Don't go there, Guardian. First of all, since Beckwith's defection everyone's up for grabs, not just Catholics. Do the math. There is a political vacuum left which not just Evangelicals are bound and determined to fill. Think about White's wider definition of 'evangelical' for a moment. Patton has done exactly the same defining on his blog under his letter to the Pope (link above).

Second of all, one ploy is to draw folks off this site and onto theirs where their fanclubs are waiting and where any one of you can be tossed off pre-emptorily. Here you can be heard, you can be in a discussion, and the mods don't toss you off just because you disagree with us -- as long as you follow the rules which are quite reasonable.

[Ani Ibi]

Originally Posted by Guardian

Which is why my first post in this thread was basically, "why give him the time of day?"

I can answer that. Because White is up front about his views.

Others are quite circumspect about articulating their views.

We here at CAF, however, are diligent about researching what folks are really saying even if that means weeks of googling and combing through verbose blogs. Eventually folks slip and we catch em and quote em.

Given a choice between up front disagreement and thinly veiled trickery, I will chose up front disagreement any day.

[Contrabass101]

Originally Posted by Guardian

I don't know what a "keyboard warror" is, perhaps you meant "keyboard warriror?"

Oh! the irony

Be careful when pointing out typos, dude

[Guardian]

Originally Posted by Contrabass101

Oh! the irony

Be careful when pointing out typos, dude

Haha! That is pretty funny, if I do say so myself. I wasn't making fun of his incorrect spelling, though, I was legitimately asking what a "keyboard warror" is. I thought "warror" may be some strange word I'm unfamiliar with, or if he just made a spelling mistake. Of course, I didn't spellcheck and made a spelling mistake, too.

[Calvinator]

Originally Posted by Guardian

I don't know what a "keyboard warror" is, perhaps you meant "keyboard warriror?" Nonetheless, if you desire for me to call him up, then give me solid reasons why I should spend time going back through and documenting his errors? Who will it benefit? Most Catholics already know his lack of honesty and scholarship, and the people that listen to him will probably blow it off.

Which is why my first post in this thread was basically, "why give him the time of day?"

Yup, I goofed...I meant warrior.

You said "Moreover, he has too much advantage on his OWN internet broadcast, anyway. He'd probably hang up on me once I start showing how shallow and unscholarly he is."

He would have an advantage, not only is it his own broadcast he also enters into debates as part of his ministry on a regular basis, so he probably has more experience than you.

However, if you call in advance and express your wishes to discuss a specific topic with him and agree in advance to some sort rules or guidelines, I don't think he would have any trouble with that. This would also take away some of his perceived advantage. I've listened to several of his debates and at least on the ones I've heard, he has been charitable. The few times I've listened to his show he has been a nice guy to his guests who call in, at least until they start making unfounded accusations. So, if you decide to do this, make sure to have notes if you are going to accuse him of anything underhanded.

If he is truely shallow and unscholarly, than you should do fine in your debate or discussion. Even if you don't "win" the debate, you will at least get your point across to a number of folks who may otherwise never hear what you have to say. You will also have the experience of debating a seasoned opponent. You seem to have a desire to be more than an apologist on CAF so this would be a good opportunity to branch out.

I don't listen to his show, at least not very often, but have listened to several of his debates. Like any debator, sometimes he does quite well and sometimes he doesn't do so good. So, maybe you would catch him on an off day.

Anyway, if his arguments are laughable and unsholarly, you could probably straighten him out or at least make a strong case for your own point of view.

I recommend giving it a try.

[BobCatholic]

Sola Scriptura cannot be practiced.

[Calvinator]

Originally Posted by BobCatholic

Sola Scriptura cannot be practiced.

Sure it can.

It is another issue as to whether or not it's what God intended but it can certainly be practiced.

[Guardian]

Originally Posted by Calvinator

Yup, I goofed...I meant warrior.

You said "Moreover, he has too much advantage on his OWN internet broadcast, anyway. He'd probably hang up on me once I start showing how shallow and unscholarly he is."

He would have an advantage, not only is it his own broadcast he also enters into debates as part of his ministry on a regular basis, so he probably has more experience than you.

However, if you call in advance and express your wishes to discuss a specific topic with him and agree in advance to some sort rules or guidelines, I don't think he would have any trouble with that. This would also take away some of his perceived advantage. I've listened to several of his debates and at least on the ones I've heard, he has been charitable. The few times I've listened to his show he has been a nice guy to his guests who call in, at least until they start making unfounded accusations. So, if you decide to do this, make sure to have notes if you are going to accuse him of anything underhanded.

If he is truely shallow and unscholarly, than you should do fine in your debate or discussion. Even if you don't "win" the debate, you will at least get your point across to a number of folks who may otherwise never hear what you have to say. You will also have the experience of debating a seasoned opponent. You seem to have a desire to be more than an apologist on CAF so this would be a good opportunity to branch out.

I don't listen to his show, at least not very often, but have listened to several of his debates. Like any debator, sometimes he does quite well and sometimes he doesn't do so good. So, maybe you would catch him on an off day.

Anyway, if his arguments are laughable and unsholarly, you could probably straighten him out or at least make a strong case for your own point of view.

I recommend giving it a try.

I think you have good reasoning here, and I will eventually call him up on my own time. Going back through his books, debates and blogs is not really on my priority list at the moment.