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  #31  
Old Jul 14, '07, 12:23 pm
PhilVaz PhilVaz is offline
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Exclamation And the Answer is "NO"

Heck, I'll call White and the conversation would go like this:

PhilVaz: Did the people in Jesus' day practice sola scriptura? The hearers of our Lord, Yes or No, Mr. White.
White: I have said over, and over, and over again, that sola scriptura --
P: It's a Yes or No.
W: -- is a doctrine that speaks to the normative condition of the church, not to times of enscripturation.
P: So your answer is No?
W: That is exactly what my answer is.
P: Thank you.
W: It is NO.
P: Did the apostles practice sola scriptura, Mr. White? Yes or No?
W: NO.
P: Thank you.

PhilVaz then reads uninterrupted, for 2 minutes

(A) For the early Church the divine Scriptures AND the oral tradition of the apostles or living apostolic Faith of the Catholic Church together formed the one infallible source and rule of faith for the Church; Church Tradition determined the canon of Scripture and furnished the key to the true interpretation of the Scriptures (Schaff, History of the Christian Church, volume 3, page 606);

(B) Throughout the whole period of the Fathers, Scripture AND Tradition ranked as complementary authorities, although overlapping or coincident in content; and if Scripture was "sufficient" in principle, Tradition provided the surest clue to Scripture's true interpretation, for in Tradition the Church received, as a legacy from the apostles, an unerring grasp of the real meaning of revelation that both Tradition AND Scripture enshrined and bore witness (Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, pages 47-48, 51);

(C) There was no notion of Sola Scriptura in the ante-Nicene Church, neither was there a notion of Sola Traditio (Tradition alone); the one universal Catholic Church of the Fathers was the repository of all revealed truth, the dispenser of all grace, and the only place where the true God accepted true worship, sacrifices, intercessions, good works, etc -- only from this Church does the truth shine forth; heretics taught doctrines found neither in Scripture nor Tradition, while orthodox Catholics in the Church of the four Gospels and four Councils were faithful to both Scripture and Tradition (Pelikan, The Christian Tradition, volume 1, pages 115-117, 334-335).

PhilVaz then hangs up, and White responds:

White: After a decade of trying, I still await a serious interaction in writing from a Roman Catholic apologist on the doctrine of sola scriptura that does not engage in the most egregious forms of misrepresentation and argument-begging. After a while, one begins to wonder why it is that the doctrine cannot be discussed openly and honestly. Why do we continuously have to point out basic error after basic error as we have above? If Rome's claims are so strong and so overwhelming (certainly a claim Rome's defenders make all the time), why the constant misrepresentation? If we had to continuously misrepresent Rome's doctrines, would we not, by so doing, be demonstrating that we do not have solid answers to her claims?



Phil P
  #32  
Old Jul 14, '07, 12:42 pm
PhilVaz PhilVaz is offline
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Exclamation SS dance

PhilVaz then calls up White again, and reads uninterrupted for 5 minutes the following summary from Yves Congar, Tradition and Traditions, Part I, chapter 2, "The Fathers and the Early Church" (pages 23ff)

(A) The true Catholic Faith and true interpretation of the Scriptures is found only in the Church which is bound up with the succession of its ministers (apostolic succession);

(B) The "rule of faith" or "rule of truth" was not the whole of Tradition; it may be the principal part, but there are other things transmitted from the apostles by tradition: rules of conduct, practice/behavior, on worship/liturgy, etc.

(C) The content of tradition consisted "materially" of the Scriptures, but "formally" of the Faith of the Catholic Church, its reading of the Scriptures in the Creed, etc; the mere text of Scripture alone was insufficient; heretics also quoted Scripture but they did not read that Scripture in the context of the Tradition or the orthodox Faith of the Catholic Church;

(D) The Catholic Church alone has received the apostolic deposit of truth, for in her the Holy Spirit of truth lives (John 14:16f; 16:13f); the Church alone is the sole inheritor of the true Christian teaching from God through Christ to the Apostles;

(E) This Tradition -- the Church's Tradition -- is itself oral; and if there were no NT Scriptures it would have been sufficient for the Church to follow "the order of tradition" received from the apostles; in the minds of the early Christians it made no difference if the transmission was purely oral since there was an assured connection to the apostles through the Churches founded by the apostles to guarantee authenticity;

(F) Scripture was everything for the Fathers, and Tradition was everything also;

(G) What was the nature of the Church of the Fathers? It was one universal visible Church ruled by a hierarchy of bishops, presbyters/priests, deacons, etc in succession from the apostles;

(H) The entire activity of the Fathers demonstrates that they united three terms that were separated and set in opposition by the controversies of the 16th century -- these three terms were Scripture, Tradition, and Church; it was always affirmed that Scripture is the rule and norm of faith only when conjoined to the Church and her Tradition;

(I) Hence, the Scriptures were never considered by the Fathers as formally "sufficient" or exclusive.

Yves Congar writes in "Excursis A: The Sufficiency of Scripture According to the Fathers and Medieval Theologians" the following conclusions and analysis --

"There is a 'fact of tradition' which it is essential to take account of. Personally, I find no difficulty, and not a little joy, in discovering there the positive affirmation that Scripture contains, at least in the form of suggestion or principle, the entire treasury of truths which it is necessary to believe in order to be saved (provided there is an adequate presentation of the Gospel message). To say that, in the sense in which the Fathers and the medieval theologians held it, does not in any way amount to a profession of the principle of Scriptura sola demanded by the Reformers....It was with the intention of restoring the sovereignty of God alone that they presented that of Scripture as exclusive. In order to do this effectively, they affirmed the sufficiency of this Scripture, not uniquely in a material sense, that is to say as the object quod creditur, but in a formal sense, that is to say as the means whereby we know, the constitutive light by which we understand, the principle of the rule of faith...Not only was the whole of faith contained in Scripture, but the Christian, benefiting from the interior witness of the Holy Spirit could find it there."

"Now, the Fathers and the medieval theologians, whom we have cited: (1) Admit the material sufficiency of Scripture...(2) Ever since they began discussing these matters, consistently affirmed that Scripture by itself cannot adequately present its true meaning; it is only understood correctly in the Church and in its tradition. If there is one position which the Fathers consistently maintained, it is the position that links inseparably Scripture, the Church and Tradition. Far from considering these three realities to be in opposition, they saw them as united and inseparable." (Congar, p. 116,117)

PhilVaz then hangs up again because there is no reply other than the usual stuff about "bodily assumption of Mary", "satispassio", this or that indulgence or prayer to Mary that White does not like.

Phil P
  #33  
Old Jul 14, '07, 3:37 pm
northgaredneck northgaredneck is offline
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Cool Re: Protestant Apologist James White and sola scriptura... Why does he always now dance around the issue?

Guardian, either you stand up for the church or you don't. You simply amaze me by your wavering. I want to hear the other side of your story.
Call Jame White and talk to him. How simple can it get??
  #34  
Old Jul 14, '07, 4:43 pm
PhilVaz PhilVaz is offline
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Question more SS

<< I want to hear the other side of your story. Call James White and talk to him. How simple can it get?? >>

Posts #31 and #32 above is the other side. What's your answer? Are Schaff, Kelly, Pelikan, and Congar wrong?

Phil P
  #35  
Old Jul 14, '07, 4:45 pm
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Ani Ibi Ani Ibi is offline
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Default Re: SS dance

I arrange a conference call between James White, David MacDonald, and myself and, while I am knitting, David says:

Quote:
1) ... Scripture says "And the Word became Flesh" (Jn1:1) It doesn't say "and the Word became paper." God became Flesh, He instituted and commissioned his Church...

2) ... Some Evangelicals might say that that the Bible is self-explanatory and needs no interpretation. They say, "the main things are the plain things." My response would be that the Evangelical movement itself does not support that statement...

3) ... What many Evangelicals do not know is that no mainstream Evangelical denomination agrees with the writings of the early reformers on some fundamental issues; for instance, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the role of the Eucharist, contraception, etc...

4) ... Martin Luther's writings (even after the reform) are closer to Catholicism than they are to modern ECLA Lutherans...

5) ... The Evangelical who reads the Bible in English, is already reading someone else’s interpretation of Scripture... The minute we walk into Church and hear a pastor's sermon we are influenced on Bible interpretation... these Evangelical sources act as teaching authorities, the way the Vatican does for Catholics.

4) ... I totally agree that Jesus is Lord, but if that is all we needed to know then I wonder why He gave us 1500 pages of Scripture. He could have just showed up for a day and said "I'm Lord" and did a big miracle and split, but He didn't. He taught his apostles, who were the Church, for 3 years...

5) ... Jesus did not write any books of the Bible. Jesus chose NOT to write but rather to build his Church, and 30-60 years later He inspired the members of his Church to write down the Gospels. Several hundred years after that, He inspired members of his Church to decide what books belong in the Bible...
White hangs up and I call back and say, "The water's warm, Jimmy!"
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  #36  
Old Jul 14, '07, 5:09 pm
Teflon93 Teflon93 is offline
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Default Re: Protestant Apologist James White and sola scriptura... Why does he always now dance around the issue?

There are a billion Catholics. One might think White might find it easier to step into a Catholic Church or monastery and speak to priest, deacon, or brother.

The real question is---what's he afraid of?
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  #37  
Old Jul 14, '07, 5:32 pm
RevDrNorth RevDrNorth is offline
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Default Re: Protestant Apologist James White and sola scriptura... Why does he always now dance around the issue?

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Originally Posted by Teflon93 View Post
There are a billion Catholics. One might think White might find it easier to step into a Catholic Church or monastery and speak to priest, deacon, or brother.

The real question is---what's he afraid of?
Good point. I knew a Basilian Father (professor) who could have given him a good run for his money.

I remember a Lutheran Youth group that wanted to understand other faiths so they attended churches at different places. At the RCC church they attended the thing that stuck out in their mind was that the Priest appeared (mannerisms) to be gay. So they brought a Catholic to speak to the group. Did not get a learned clergyman but an ex Catholic who was married to a Lutheran. He apprently knew little of the RCC faith except to add to the Youth's feeling that the Lutheran Church was correct.

Rev North
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  #38  
Old Jul 14, '07, 5:51 pm
Teflon93 Teflon93 is offline
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Default Re: Protestant Apologist James White and sola scriptura... Why does he always now dance around the issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RevDrNorth View Post
Good point. I knew a Basilian Father (professor) who could have given him a good run for his money.

I remember a Lutheran Youth group that wanted to understand other faiths so they attended churches at different places. At the RCC church they attended the thing that stuck out in their mind was that the Priest appeared (mannerisms) to be gay. So they brought a Catholic to speak to the group. Did not get a learned clergyman but an ex Catholic who was married to a Lutheran. He apprently knew little of the RCC faith except to add to the Youth's feeling that the Lutheran Church was correct.

Rev North
Rev North-

That's a terrific example.

When my wife and I wanted to learn more about the Catholic Church, even here in the heart of the Bible Belt, all we had to do was pull out the phone book and call. Our deacon insisted on meeting with us right away and spent an hour answering our questions before inviting us to sit in on RCIA class.

It is much easier to learn about Catholicism than we found it to learn about the Pentecostal or Methodist churches to which we'd previously belonged, not least of which is because the Catechism is written down and widely available.

People may disagree with Catholic teaching or belief, but it seems a pretty simple thing to find out what those teachings and beliefs are.
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  #39  
Old Jul 15, '07, 12:55 pm
Truthstalker Truthstalker is offline
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Default Re: Protestant Apologist James White and sola scriptura... Why does he always now dance around the issue?

Pardon my naivete, but can you demonstrate, with links, places where Mr. White misrepresented known facts and/or the Catholic position on anything? Between his accusations on his blog and some of the statements here, it is hard to get to the bottom of who is being meaner to whom. Unintemded errors he made would be one thing, but known errors he keeps making (when he knows better) would be telling. General broad swipes get nowhere. Just the facts, ma'am. Y'all can do better than you've done so far on this thread. Please point out the problem, its exact nature and location, so I can see it. I miss way too much as it is. Thank you.
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  #40  
Old Jul 15, '07, 1:47 pm
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Default Re: Protestant Apologist James White and sola scriptura... Why does he always now dance around the issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truthstalker View Post
Pardon my naivete, but can you demonstrate, with links, places where Mr. White misrepresented known facts and/or the Catholic position on anything? ... I miss way too much as it is. Thank you.
You missed the link already given.
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  #41  
Old Jul 15, '07, 1:54 pm
HailMary HailMary is offline
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Default Re: Protestant Apologist James White and sola scriptura... Why does he always now dance around the issue?

When non-catholic Christians speak about Sola Scriptura they usually speak in sentences like this, but unfortunately, the logic is not there.

Not to mention SS is, as Mr. Spock would say, ILLOGICAL
Try that link out if you really believe in Sola Scriptura can stand up to the test and lead to true Christian living.
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  #42  
Old Jul 15, '07, 2:25 pm
Truthstalker Truthstalker is offline
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Default Re: Protestant Apologist James White and sola scriptura... Why does he always now dance around the issue?

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Originally Posted by Ani Ibi View Post
You missed the link already given.
Can you link to the link?
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  #43  
Old Jul 15, '07, 2:33 pm
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Default Re: Protestant Apologist James White and sola scriptura... Why does he always now dance around the issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truthstalker View Post
Can you link to the link?
It's on this page.
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  #44  
Old Jul 15, '07, 3:40 pm
kaycee kaycee is offline
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Default Re: Protestant Apologist James White and sola scriptura... Why does he always now dance around the issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teflon93 View Post
There are a billion Catholics. One might think White might find it easier to step into a Catholic Church or monastery and speak to priest, deacon, or brother.

The real question is---what's he afraid of?
Sounds like a futile effort, for the priest or deacon would be lost in the first 5 minutes. I doubt they even know who the popular Catholic apologists are.
  #45  
Old Jul 15, '07, 3:52 pm
Teflon93 Teflon93 is offline
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Default Re: Protestant Apologist James White and sola scriptura... Why does he always now dance around the issue?

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Originally Posted by kaycee View Post
Sounds like a futile effort, for the priest or deacon would be lost in the first 5 minutes. I doubt they even know who the popular Catholic apologists are.
No, they hear tortured logic and irrationality all the time in the Confessional---I'm quite certain nothing White could come up with would shock them.

Of course, taking the time to reason with a bigot does take time away from anointing the sick, giving last rites to the dying, helping the poor, and presiding over the Lord's Supper.

It leaves little time to promulgate lies about fellow Christians, surely, time White seems to have aplenty.
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