No Tridentine Mass during the Triduum?

kleary · #1 Jul 8, '07, 5:46 pm

I have heard Article #2 mean two different things.

The context of Art. 2 is "private celebration without a congregation or only a "few" attending. Then it says the 1962 Missal cannot be used during the Eastern Triduum.

The liberals are saying that Art. 2 applies to all useage of the 1962 Missal- anywhere and everywhere- "No 1962 Missal during the Easter Triduum" at all. This was a concession to the Jews who complained of the prayer for their conversion in the Mass of the Presanctified on Good Friday.

The fact about article #2 as seen from the "Traditionalist side" says that no priest is allowed to celebrate the Mass, or the Mass of the presanctified in private during the Triduum. This is because this rule always was in effect anyway. So this Article #2, that forbids holy week celebrations does not apply to parish churches, or other situations, just "no private celebration without congregation".

Ken

Formosus · #2 Jul 8, '07, 5:54 pm

Part two is how it is. Even in the NO there is only one Mass per day during tridium. If the parish is a primarily tridentine parish, then it will use it during that time and if its a mostly NO parish it will use the NO.

TantumErgo90 · #3 Jul 8, '07, 5:55 pm

The Good Friday liturgy may be said according to the Extraordinary Form in personal parishes (see Summorum Pontificum Art. 10), and Art. 5 of Summorum Pontificum says that an Extraordinary Use may be celebrated publicly, so the Good Friday liturgy according to 1962 may be used. The ban during the Triduum applies only to private masses of both the Ordinary and Extraordinary Uses, as private masses are not permitted during the Triduum. Art. 2 only talked about private masses.

kleary · #4 Jul 8, '07, 6:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formosus

Part two is how it is. Even in the NO there is only one Mass per day during tridium. If the parish is a primarily tridentine parish, then it will use it during that time and if its a mostly NO parish it will use the NO.

That seems absurd. I know some priests who WANT to use the 1962 Missal for the Holy Thursday Mass of the Lord's Supper, Mass of the Presanctified and the Easter Vigil especially. I mean it is the most holiest time of the year and the 1962 Missal is banned from use during that time? That in no way seems right. I guess we are going to need the Ecclesia Dei Commission to weigh in on what the correct interpretation is.

Ken

Ghosty · #5 Jul 8, '07, 7:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kleary

That seems absurd. I know some priests who WANT to use the 1962 Missal for the Holy Thursday Mass of the Lord's Supper, Mass of the Presanctified and the Easter Vigil especially. I mean it is the most holiest time of the year and the 1962 Missal is banned from use during that time? That in no way seems right. I guess we are going to need the Ecclesia Dei Commission to weigh in on what the correct interpretation is.

Ken

I don't see how Article 2 could apply to the Masses talked about in Article 5. Private Masses, the explicit subject of that article, are a WHOLE different bag from public parish Masses; if they weren't they wouldn't have seperate articles distinguishing them.

No such limits are put on the Masses of Article 5, despite it clearly being a seperate matter from the Masses of Article 2, so no such limitations should be assumed.

In simple terms: Article 2 is for private Masses only, Article 5 is for public/parish Masses only.

Peace and God bless!

Christophorus · #6 Jul 8, '07, 7:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghosty

I don't see how Article 2 could apply to the Masses talked about in Article 5. Private Masses, the explicit subject of that article, are a WHOLE different bag from public parish Masses; if they weren't they wouldn't have seperate articles distinguishing them.

No such limits are put on the Masses of Article 5, despite it clearly being a seperate matter from the Masses of Article 2, so no such limitations should be assumed.

In simple terms: Article 2 is for private Masses only, Article 5 is for public/parish Masses only.

Peace and God bless!

Gracias et Pax Vobiscum,

Thank you for the Clarification.

Pax.

Ghosty · #7 Jul 8, '07, 7:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christophorus

Gracias et Pax Vobiscum,

Thank you for the Clarification.

Pax.

Don't take it as official, because I'm just going off what I understand of Latin legal documents. Most commentators in the know have concluded the same as I have, though.

There are practically no restrictions on the TLM as of the Motu Proprio. The only real issue will be getting Pastors of parishes to set up an official time for one. If they don't you can go to another priest of the parish and ask them to say a "private" Mass, or appeal all the way up to the Pontifical Commision of Ecclesia Dei.

Peace and God bless!

Christophorus · #8 Jul 8, '07, 7:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghosty

Don't take it as official, because I'm just going off what I understand of Latin legal documents. Most commentators in the know have concluded the same as I have, though.

There are practically no restrictions on the TLM as of the Motu Proprio. The only real issue will be getting Pastors of parishes to set up an official time for one. If they don't you can go to another priest of the parish and ask them to say a "private" Mass, or appeal all the way up to the Pontifical Commision of Ecclesia Dei.

Peace and God bless!

Gracias et Pax Vobiscum,

I currently attend an Indult Parish (St. Joseph Catholic Church).

Pax.

Caesar · #9 Jul 8, '07, 8:10 pm

Kleary,

This article reffers to parishes that will use both forms of the Liturgy, and for private Masses. Parishes, oratories and chapels that use the TLM exclusively are exempt from this as they are under their own provisions.

The reason for this is because during the Triduum there should not be separate Masses in the same parish church- ie. there should not be two Holy Thursday Masses, and two Good Friday Services, or two Easter Vigils.

So don't worry, your parish will still have the Triduum

kleary · #10 Jul 8, '07, 8:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caesar

Kleary,

This article reffers to parishes that will use both forms of the Liturgy, and for private Masses. Parishes, oratories and chapels that use the TLM exclusively are exempt from this as they are under their own provisions.

The reason for this is because during the Triduum there should not be separate Masses in the same parish church- ie. there should not be two Holy Thursday Masses, and two Good Friday Services, or two Easter Vigils.

So don't worry, your parish will still have the Triduum

I know we will still be able to use the 1962 Missal during the Triduum.

I just was looking at the MP and seeing what could be taken as a restriction on the useage of the 1962 Missal in a Novus Ordo parish church. As someone who knows the "ways" of the 1962 Missal (A Priest may not celebrate a "mass without the people" during the Triduum) it could be taken as one reply here has said- that you must use the Novus Ordo during the Triduum.

Ken

Caesar · #11 Jul 8, '07, 8:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kleary

I know we will still be able to use the 1962 Missal during the Triduum.

I just was looking at the MP and seeing what could be taken as a restriction on the useage of the 1962 Missal in a Novus Ordo parish church. As someone who knows the "ways" of the 1962 Missal (A Priest may not celebrate a "mass without the people" during the Triduum) it could be taken as one reply here has said- that you must use the Novus Ordo during the Triduum.

Ken

No doubt some priests and Bishops might try to interpret the MP that way

Psalm45:9 · #12 Jul 10, '07, 2:40 am

EWTN now has the official English translation available online. It specifically states that Private Mass during the Paschal Triduum is not an option, but the church has always stated that. It emphasizes only the extrodinary or the ordinary missal may be used, not both. Considering how the Paschal Triduum is one Mass extended through three days, it would be tachy to say have Maundy Thursday Mass according to the extrodinary Missal and then turn around and have the Good Friday Service according to the ordinary Missal. The MP states how I interpreted it, private Masses may not be celebrated during the Paschal Triduum. If a parish desires that the Paschal Triduum be celebrated according to the extrodinary Missal, then public celebration of it is permitted, but not private.

If you think about it, this is why Funeral and Wedding Masses may not be celebrated during the Paschal Triduum, they are private Masses.

kleary · #13 Jul 10, '07, 7:56 pm

And last night, on the EWTN special World Over episode- Raymond Arroyo stated publicly....

"Celebration of Mass using the 1962 Missal during the Triduum is prohibited."

Someone had better contact the Ecclesia Dei Commission immediately to correct this incorrect interpretation. The Sacred Triduum is the most sacred time of the year for us- to ban the Traditional Latin Mass at that time is absurd!

Ken

Swiss Guard · #14 Jul 10, '07, 9:07 pm

I think the only parishes that will have the Tridentine Mass during the Triduum will be those staffed by the FSSP and ICR.

The MP can certainly be interpreted as prohibiting the Tridentine Mass during the Triduum since there can only be one Mass each day, the NO is still the ordinary Mass of the Church, and the Tridentine Mass is not to supplant the NO at a parish that currently offers the NO Mass.

Psalm45:9 · #15 Jul 11, '07, 1:58 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by kleary

And last night, on the EWTN special World Over episode- Raymond Arroyo stated publicly....

"Celebration of Mass using the 1962 Missal during the Triduum is prohibited."

Someone had better contact the Ecclesia Dei Commission immediately to correct this incorrect interpretation. The Sacred Triduum is the most sacred time of the year for us- to ban the Traditional Latin Mass at that time is absurd!

Ken

We're all going to have to wait a couple of days on this. I saw one person e-mail this question and they didn't answer it, instead they answered the question of the prayer for the Jews on Good Friday, they did not say that the old presanctified liturgy of Good Friday is prohibited, only that the 62 version has taken away some words that could imply anti-semitism. So it seemed to me they are saying there instances where it can be celebrated, others have stated the FSSP. Given how the article is talking about private masses as a whole, that is how I interpreted it. I am sure this is a subject that will be cleared up in a few days.