Pitsburgh Diocese Missinterprets Motu Proprio

kleary · #1 Jul 12, '07, 8:37 pm

The Diocese of Pittsburgh is going to attempt to forbid Public Latin Masses outside the current indult location by claiming ahead of time that no "group of faithful attached to the previous liturgical tradition exists stably" outside of the indult location, thus issuing a preemptive strike against any Pastor who might dare to claim otherwise. The diocese is also ahead of time forbidding the substitution of a Tridentine Mass for a Pauline Mass in the regular Church schedule by stating: "the celebration of the Roman Missal of Pope Blessed John XXIII is not permitted at regularly scheduled weekday or Sunday."

http://www.diopitt.org/postingboard/gensec_latinmass.pdf

Christophorus · #2 Jul 12, '07, 9:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kleary

The Diocese of Pittsburgh is going to attempt to forbid Public Latin Masses outside the current indult location by claiming ahead of time that no "group of faithful attached to the previous liturgical tradition exists stably" outside of the indult location, thus issuing a preemptive strike against any Pastor who might dare to claim otherwise. The diocese is also ahead of time forbidding the substitution of a Tridentine Mass for a Pauline Mass in the regular Church schedule by stating: "the celebration of the Roman Missal of Pope Blessed John XXIII is not permitted at regularly scheduled weekday or Sunday."

http://www.diopitt.org/postingboard/gensec_latinmass.pdf

Gracia et Pax Vobiscum,

There are many Eastern Orthodox Parishes in the Greater Pittsburgh area whom are largely populated by disaffected Roman Catholics... Now we see why.

Our Holy Father once spoke of a future Catholic Church which would be 'smaller and more devout'. Perhaps we are seeing the catalyst for the making of this Remnant....

Pax Vobiscum.

ReConverted · #3 Jul 12, '07, 10:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christophorus

Gracia et Pax Vobiscum,

Our Holy Father once spoke of a future Catholic Church which would be 'smaller and more devout'. Perhaps we are seeing the catalyst for the making of this Remnant....

Pax Vobiscum.

If that's what has to happen, then it's fine by me.

Catholic29 · #4 Jul 12, '07, 11:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by kleary

The Diocese of Pittsburgh is going to attempt to forbid Public Latin Masses outside the current indult location by claiming ahead of time that no "group of faithful attached to the previous liturgical tradition exists stably" outside of the indult location, thus issuing a preemptive strike against any Pastor who might dare to claim otherwise. The diocese is also ahead of time forbidding the substitution of a Tridentine Mass for a Pauline Mass in the regular Church schedule by stating: "the celebration of the Roman Missal of Pope Blessed John XXIII is not permitted at regularly scheduled weekday or Sunday."

http://www.diopitt.org/postingboard/..._latinmass.pdf

It appears the Ecclesia Dei commission in Rome is going to be very busy...

rtconstant · #5 Jul 12, '07, 11:54 pm

I hate to hear this. Why can't we all just listen to the Holy Father? He's not a bad guy. I mean he seems kind of cool to me. Even trustworthy. I hear Jesus likes him to. Something about trusting him with some keys or something...

CatholicNick · #6 Jul 13, '07, 12:16 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rtconstant

I hate to hear this. Why can't we all just listen to the Holy Father? He's not a bad guy. I mean he seems kind of cool to me. Even trustworthy. I hear Jesus likes him to. Something about trusting him with some keys or something...

Indeed

KofC660 · #7 Jul 13, '07, 12:37 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by kleary

The Diocese of Pittsburgh is going to attempt to forbid Public Latin Masses outside the current indult location by claiming ahead of time that no "group of faithful attached to the previous liturgical tradition exists stably" outside of the indult location, thus issuing a preemptive strike against any Pastor who might dare to claim otherwise. The diocese is also ahead of time forbidding the substitution of a Tridentine Mass for a Pauline Mass in the regular Church schedule by stating: "the celebration of the Roman Missal of Pope Blessed John XXIII is not permitted at regularly scheduled weekday or Sunday."

http://www.diopitt.org/postingboard/gensec_latinmass.pdf

I'll be the first to say: I told you so!

People that thought the TLM would be offered "generously" were deluding themselves. You will find the TLM no more available after September 14th than you do now. First, there aren't enough people interested in it, second, the power structure of the Church won't allow it to be offered "generously".

Like · #8 Jul 13, '07, 1:04 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by KofC660

I'll be the first to say: I told you so!

People that thought the TLM would be offered "generously" were deluding themselves. You will find the TLM no more available after September 14th than you do now. First, there aren't enough people interested in it, second, the power structure of the Church won't allow it to be offered "generously".

And I'll be the first to say.....You hit the nail right on the head"!

Scotty PGH · #9 Jul 13, '07, 6:03 am

There is an update to this story here:

http://manwithblackhat.blogspot.com/...ittsburgh.html

Let me say this -- this is NOTHING compared to what the Bishop in Erie is doing!

chicago · #10 Jul 13, '07, 10:53 am

I have to wonder how much of a mess this all is going to create for Ecclesia Dei (and what kind of bureaucratical backlog which slows them to a standstill) this all is going to create when people start appealing to them directly.

rtconstant · #11 Jul 13, '07, 10:59 am

I read the post that Scotty put up and after that it doesn't really sound like the Pittsburg isn't really planning on being restrictive, They simply stated that no solo masses can replace established mass times and that nothing was changing until September. The explanation seemed reasonable to me. At least that is what I read. I could be wrong though. Of course I guess the proof will be in September

JW10631 · #12 Jul 13, '07, 1:52 pm

As for how many Catholics now worship as Eastern Orthodox within the parameters of the Diocese of Pittsburgh, I have no idea and no way to ascertain the number. I would dare say there are more former Byzantine Catholics of the Pittsburgh Metropolia who have become Eastern Orthodox due to the difficulties with the new translation of their Liturgy.

At first, the statement issued by the Diocese of Pittsburgh does indeed seem hostile. Fr. DiNardo's explanation helps.

Our former Bishop, Archbishop Wuerl, who is not universally liked in Traditional
circles, did indeed grant the Indult under Ecclesia Dei and the Pittsburgh Latin Mass community has grown since that time. There is nothing that I have seen in Bishop Bradley's words or demeanor to show he is hostile to the MP or in Latin in the NO Liturgy. Pittsburgh has had difficulties in attracting new seminarians for many reasons. This diocese, while still larger than most in the US (approx. 800,000) has a disproportionate share of elderly Catholics and many young people tend to leave her to look for work where there is a warm climate. I think Bishop Bradley has done a fine job as Administrator and I don't understand why His Holiness simply doesn't appoint Bishop Bradley as Ordinary of Pittsburgh. We don't need a Bishop to be taken from another Diocese, especially when there are so many that are vacant or will be vacant soon.

Many priests in our diocese have had to "double up" and manage two parishes, so until there are more priests here I don't see the TLM being offered everywhere, but I certainly think it will be offered in more Pittsburgh parishes in the next few years.

**mercygate** · #13 Jul 13, '07, 2:00 pm

The bishops letter merely states the conditions of the Motu Proprio. It states that the conditions go into effect on September 14. It states that until that date the present practice of the diocese remains in effect.

Tlhere is nothing unduly or preemptively restrictive here. If anything, it is reminding priests where they might go to brush up on their Mass skills, should a parish acquire a "stable" population that requests the regular celebration of the TLM.

jmj603 · #14 Jul 14, '07, 4:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rtconstant

it doesn't really sound like the Pittsburg isn't really planning on being restrictive, They simply stated that no solo masses can replace established mass times

It totally eliminates the right of the pastor under Summorum Pontificum to respond to pastoral needs as they are, or as they might come into existence. It basically says that any community of Latin Mass parishioners that might develop at any point in time needs to appeal to Rome first, because the case has already been decided at the diocesan level. Summorum Pontificum clearly states:

Quote:

Art. 5 § 1 In parishes, where there is a stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition, the pastor should willingly accept their requests to celebrate the Mass according to the rite of the Roman Missal published in 1962, and ensure that the welfare of these faithful harmonises with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish, under the guidance of the bishop in accordance with canon 392, avoiding discord and favouring the unity of the whole Church.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mercygate

The bishops letter merely states the conditions of the Motu Proprio.....There is nothing unduly or preemptively restrictive here. If anything, it is reminding priests where they might go to brush up on their Mass skills, should a parish acquire a "stable" population that requests the regular celebration of the TLM.

It's not unduly restrictive to declare a finding of fact that traditionalists are extinct in a diocese, except within the confines of a single urban neighborhood, namely the Northside of Pittsburgh, within a week of the publication of the document? It isn't preemptive to make the finding of fact when the document itself leaves it up to the group of people themselves to make the initial request?

**mercygate** · #15 Jul 14, '07, 5:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmj603

It totally eliminates the right of the pastor under Summorum Pontificum to respond to pastoral needs as they are, or as they might come into existence. It basically says that any community of Latin Mass parishioners that might develop at any point in time needs to appeal to Rome first, because the case has already been decided at the diocesan level. Summorum Pontificum clearly states:

It's not unduly restrictive to declare a finding of fact that traditionalists are extinct in a diocese, except within the confines of a single urban neighborhood, namely the Northside of Pittsburgh, within a week of the publication of the document? It isn't preemptive to make the finding of fact when the document itself leaves it up to the group of people themselves to make the initial request?

Calm down and read the bishop's letter again. He is not restricting future celebrations of the TLM to his indult parish. This is Pittsburgh, for Pete's sake! It's not Los Angeles.