Latin Mass Cause for Concern

[AlexV]

The prayer in question, with the word "perfidis" dropped (1959), was used on Good Friday through at least Good Friday of 1970. There was no outcry then, even in the years after Vatican II. Vatican II didn't say the prayer was "offensive" or "inappropriate".

Where was Foxman in 1984, for the first indult? How about 1988? Some communities have used the 1962 Good Friday liturgy for years running.

Foxman et al. should go read the 1962 Breviary. He can have a field day with Ambrose, Augustine, Gregory, Leo...they talk about the Jews pretty often in their homilies. Shall we ban them too?

[chosen people]

Originally Posted by MaryD7

I took it upon myself to correct your link. Your link went to a single post, not the thread.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...33#post2486833 Your posts start at #5.

I'm rather speechless about what I read and I have to go back and reread it again. So sad all the way around.

Thank you for your assistance. I hope others here will also check out the link. If they do it will help them to understand the painful awareness of the Jewish people how words and ideas in the Catholic Church have led certain adherents into terrible sins and crimes against my people. We speak from experience not "over sensitivity".

[chosen people]

Originally Posted by AlexV

The prayer in question, with the word "perfidis" dropped (1959), was used on Good Friday through at least Good Friday of 1970. There was no outcry then, even in the years after Vatican II. Vatican II didn't say the prayer was "offensive" or "inappropriate".

Where was Foxman in 1984, for the first indult? How about 1988? Some communities have used the 1962 Good Friday liturgy for years running.

Foxman et al. should go read the 1962 Breviary. He can have a field day with Ambrose, Augustine, Gregory, Leo...they talk about the Jews pretty often in their homilies. Shall we ban them too?

You are perfectly correct that there is no lack of anti Jewish rhetoric both in Catholic scriptures as well as Catholic literature. Your point being...?!

[Petergee]

Originally Posted by chosen people

Please go to http://forums.catholic.com/showpost....33&postcount=5

and read through to post number 13 - that might be a good start

An interesting if one-sided history of anti-semitism, most of it perpetrated by people who were bitterly opposed to the Catholic Church. There is certainly nothing there which contradicts anything I've said here. I think it's you who is missing the point.

[chosen people]

Originally Posted by Petergee

An interesting if one-sided history of anti-semitism, most of it perpetrated by people who were bitterly opposed to the Catholic Church. There is certainly nothing there which contradicts anything I've said here. I think it's you who is missing the point.

Which Popes, Catholic Saints and other Catholic Church leaders on the list were "bitterly opposed to the Catholic Church"? Which Catholics on the list so "bitterly opposed to Catholicism" were excomunicated from the Church? What in the list is inaccurate? Why is this historically accurate if incomplete list a "one-sided history of antisemitsm"? - are you saying, as I believe you are- that the Jewish people have had it coming to them for the past 2000 years?

[MaryD7]

Originally Posted by chosen people

Which Popes, Catholic Saints and other Catholic Church leaders on the list were "bitterly opposed to the Catholic Church"? Which Catholics on the list so "bitterly opposed to Catholicism" were excomunicated from the Church? What in the list is inaccurate? Why is this historically accurate if incomplete list a "one-sided history of antisemitsm"? - are you saying, as I believe you are- that the Jewish people have had it coming to them for the past 2000 years?

Chosen, I too am interested in Petergee's explanation of "most of it perpetrated by people who were bitterly opposed to Catholicism". However, I don't think he is saying that the Jewish people had it coming. Please don't read more into it than necessary.

This may be a chance for dialogue for one religion (Catholic) to explain their words in a prayer and another to explain why they are leery of such words. It doesn't seem to be so much the words that offend, but maybe the attitude and actions that historically accompanied the words.

[chosen people]

Originally Posted by MaryD7

Chosen, I too am interested in Petergee's explanation of "most of it perpetrated by people who were bitterly opposed to Catholicism". However, I don't think he is saying that the Jewish people had it coming. Please don't read more into it than necessary.

This may be a chance for dialogue for one religion (Catholic) to explain their words in a prayer and another to explain why they are leery of such words. It doesn't seem to be so much the words that offend, but maybe the attitude and actions that historically accompanied the words.

That's my point. This discussion was held half a century ago and resolved. It symbolized true goodwill and a willingness not only to acknowledge historical facts but to take steps to change attitudes. I'm still unclear as to the motives of those forces wishing to reopen the discussion now with all its negative ramifications.

[Petergee]

Originally Posted by chosen people

Which Popes, Catholic Saints and other Catholic Church leaders on the list were "bitterly opposed to the Catholic Church"? Which Catholics on the list so "bitterly opposed to Catholicism" were excomunicated from the Church? What in the list is inaccurate? Why is this historically accurate if incomplete list a "one-sided history of antisemitsm"? - are you saying, as I believe you are- that the Jewish people have had it coming to them for the past 2000 years?

WTH?? No-one said anything in your history is inaccurate. If you hoestly are ignorant that the early Protestants, the Nazis and the Communists were bitterly opposed to Catholicism, you've got a lot of study to do. If you honestly want to have a discussion about the topic, stop creating straw-men. Everybody is horrified that the Nazis massacrted the Jews (they treated the Catholics pretty badly too, though admittedly not on anything like the same scale per capita), and that a lot of other people, Christians included had previously treated Jews badly in various ways. But that doesn't give you the right to hurl the label of "anti-semitism" every time somebody mentions Jews in a way that's not entirely to your liking.

The Mass of John XXIII has never been banned and has always been a valid option. Pope Benedict has merely given bishops and priests permission to use it somewhat more often. The Mass of Paul VI was introduced as the standard Mass for a number of reasons, but certainly not because of any supposed "anti-semitism" in the Mass of John XXIII. Both of the alternative forms of Mass contain a once-yearly prayer that Jews and those of all other religions, and none, may eventually find their way into Christ's Church. If you have a problem with that, that's too bad. I'm sure that Jewish prayers say things about Gentiles that I wouldn't be entirely happy with, but I wouldn't dream of trying to interfere with YOUR freedom to pray in the way YOUR religion decides is the right way. But you certainly can't blame Benedict for the supposed problem you perceive.

[chosen people]

Originally Posted by Petergee

WTH?? No-one said anything in your history is inaccurate. If you hoestly are ignorant that the early Protestants, the Nazis and the Communists were bitterly opposed to Catholicism, you've got a lot of study to do. If you honestly want to have a discussion about the topic, stop creating straw-men. Everybody is horrified that the Nazis massacrted the Jews (they treated the Catholics pretty badly too, though admittedly not on anything like the same scale per capita), and that a lot of other people, Christians included had previously treated Jews badly in various ways. But that doesn't give you the right to hurl the label of "anti-semitism" every time somebody mentions Jews in a way that's not entirely to your liking.

The Mass of John XXIII has never been banned and has always been a valid option. Pope Benedict has merely given bishops and priests permission to use it somewhat more often. The Mass of Paul VI was introduced as the standard Mass for a number of reasons, but certainly not because of any supposed "anti-semitism" in the Mass of John XXIII. Both of the alternative forms of Mass contain a once-yearly prayer that Jews and those of all other religions, and none, may eventually find their way into Christ's Church. If you have a problem with that, that's too bad. I'm sure that Jewish prayers say things about Gentiles that I wouldn't be entirely happy with, but I wouldn't dream of trying to interfere with YOUR freedom to pray in the way YOUR religion decides is the right way. But you certainly can't blame Benedict for the supposed problem you perceive.

You may not agree with me however I assure you that I am neither ignorant "honestly" or otherwise. I do "honestly" fail to grasp the connection between persecution of Catholics by the groups you mentioned (whom incidentally have also all been responsible for grosser atrocoities against the Jews) and this post.

It could be hoped that having read a partial list detailing 2000 years of Christian antisemitism (that yes lead to the holocaust) you would have been made aware not only of justified Jewish sensitivity but also to the inherent dangers of derogatory referrences to Jews and Judaism.Anything in Catholicism that may potentially contribute to antisemitic attitudes towards my people is damn well my business and it should be yours. Otherwise you are quite correct that anything you do in prayer that does not personally affect me or the Jewish people is of absolutely no concern to myself or other Jews.

[AlexV]

I'd like the Talmud expunged of anything that might offend Christians. I want it done by next Wednesday at the latest. And I want apologies read in all synagogues.

Give me a break.

[chosen people]

Originally Posted by AlexV

I'd like the Talmud expunged of anything that might offend Christians. I want it done by next Wednesday at the latest. And I want apologies read in all synagogues.

Give me a break.

The irony in your statement is that your "knowledge" of the Talmud and what it contains is no doubt based on the rantings of a Russian Orthodox antisemitic priest at the turn of 20th Century Russia. Rest assured that you are in good company as similar unfounded sentiments are expressed in every Christian White Supremist hate site on the internet. In case facts and truth are relevant to you please see: http://www.adl.org/presrele/asus_12/the_talmud.pdf

Of course gentiles are always ready to believe anything derogatory about Jews. Now why is that?

[DustinsDad]

Originally Posted by AlexV

I'd like the Talmud expunged of anything that might offend Christians. I want it done by next Wednesday at the latest. And I want apologies read in all synagogues.

Yes. I want them to refute all of these blasphemies:

http://www.noahide.com/yeshu.htm

Kind of puts the attack on the prayer for the conversion of the Jews in a whole new light. We should be praying for them all the harder!

For the conversion of Jews. Let us pray also for the Jews that the Lord our God may take the veil from their hearts and that they also may acknowledge our Lord Jesus Christ. Let us pray: Almighty and everlasting God, you do not refuse your mercy even to the Jews; hear the prayers which we offer for the blindness of that people so that they may acknowledge the light of your truth, which is Christ, and be delivered from their darkness.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

[Abira]

Originally Posted by DustinsDad

For the conversion of Jews. Let us pray also for the Jews that the Lord our God may take the veil from their hearts and that they also may acknowledge our Lord Jesus Christ. Let us pray: Almighty and everlasting God, you do not refuse your mercy even to the Jews; hear the prayers which we offer for the blindness of that people so that they may acknowledge the light of your truth, which is Christ, and be delivered from their darkness.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

I'm sorry I can't quote a source for this, I can't remember where I heard it before.

I was just reminded of an idea I heard a while back: That because the Jews are God's chosen people that when the end comes they will be given the special position of all being converted by Christ because of their special status with God.

This isn't my personal view...never really thought about it but the line about not refusing mercy EVEN to the Jews reminded me of it... in a sense I seem to remember someone saying that if they keep to their own covenant then God will make them know the truth in the end times.

What do you think of that? Is there any truth to it? Or is it simply a personal view of one person I remember speaking?

I bought a book called: Jesus in the Talmud and haven't got past the introduction because it's kinda offensive... I also don't wanna read something like that without being able to know the Jewish explanations first as the introduction upset me quite a lot... even the titles in the contents lol

S

[DustinsDad]

Originally Posted by chosen people

The irony in your statement is that your "knowledge" of the Talmud and what it contains is no doubt based on the rantings of a Russian Orthodox antisemitic priest at the turn of 20th Century Russia. ...

All one has to do is look at Jewish sources (see my above post and the link therein). Seems obvious to me that attacking the prayer for the conversion of Jews because of "possible anti-semitism" is a ruse. The goal is to separate Christianity from the faith, get them to abandon "missionary work" and to embrace this false notion of religious indifferentism and works-based-salvation (i.e. the Noahtide Laws) and be at the service of the Jewish effort to bring about a messiah (who has already come and is calling you to this very day).

Quoting from http://www.noahide.com/bm_article.htm

"Already in 1977, the Rebbe was emphasizing that part of a Jew's total service is for the purpose of influencing the gentile nations, so that they will be transformed from a source of opposition into a vast reservoir of physical strength to assist Jewish service."

In this way, the gentiles play a crucial role in helping to bring Moshiach, but we must open our eyes and take advantage of this new opportunity. On the third of Tammuz, 5751, the Rebbe declared that "the world is ready and prepared [for Moshiach]! When a Jew goes about his Divine service properly, rising beyond all limitations and constraints, yet doing so in a way that [his service] can be enclothed in the vestments of nature, he will see how the world, nature, and gentiles, are indeed aiding him in his service" (Shabbos Parshas Korach).

"When gentile Americans, in exponentially growing numbers, will abandon their churches and their missionary efforts, when they will demand kosher meat (since treif meat in the stores often fails Noachide standards of ever min chai), when they will replace their old, pagan holidays with Rosh Hashanah, Sukkos, and Chanukah, when they will finance rabbis to teach them relevant parts of Torah, when they will actively defend the territorial integrity of Eretz Israel and proclaim the Rebbe to be Moshiach — then no Jew, anywhere, will retain the slightest desire to remain in golus. Every single Jewish man, woman, and child will run to embrace the Torah, finally revealing their true underlying desire.

These passages are not from some white supremacist group, their from JAHG-USA (Jews and Hasidic Gentiles United to Save America)

DustinsDad

[DustinsDad]

Originally Posted by Abira

...I was just reminded of an idea I heard a while back: That because the Jews are God's chosen people that when the end comes they will be given the special position of all being converted by Christ because of their special status with God.

I don't think it's dogma, but a popular view of the end-times theology.

Originally Posted by Abira

...This isn't my personal view...never really thought about it but the line about not refusing mercy EVEN to the Jews reminded me of it... in a sense I seem to remember someone saying that if they keep to their own covenant then God will make them know the truth in the end times. What do you think of that?

Never heard that before - my take on the "EVEN" in the prayer is related to the teaching that "To him that is given much, much is expected. To him given more, all the more". In a sense, the Jewish people were given so much, being the chosen people of God, and so more is expected of them by God...yet for the most part they still reject the Christ, the Messiah. So we beg God to have mercy on even them that had so much but refused the greatest gift of all - the Savior!

It's like so many times in the Old Testament. We see the elder brother passed over for the younger - sometimes giving away his inheritance! Forshadowing of what was to come. It is in this sense that the Jews are our "Elder Brothers". We still must love them, have charity toward them, and pray for them. In the end (and even now in individual cases), we pray that God will enlighten them (as you mentioned above).

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad