Latin Mass Cause for Concern

[Petergee]

Originally Posted by chosen people

If you or anyone here is truly interested the following website might be a good place to start:

http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm

According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come.

The Noahic commandments are binding on all people, because all people are descended from Noah and his family. The 613 mitzvot of the Torah, on the other hand, are only binding on the descendants of those who accepted the commandments at Sinai and upon those who take on the yoke of the commandments voluntarily (by conversion). In addition, the Noahic commandments are applied more leniently to non-Jews than the corresponding commandments are to Jews, because non-Jews do not have the benefit of Oral Torah to guide them in interpreting the laws. For example, worshipping G-d in the form of a man would constitute idolatry for a Jew; however, according to some sources, the Christian worship of Jesus does not constitute idolatry for non-Jews.

And according to the same site the oral Torah has been written down in the Talmud, which is available for anyone to read. So all Jewish sources, even the minority of Jewish sources which (bizarrely IMO) think that Christians are so stupid that they don't realise that worshipping anything or anyone which isn't God is idolatry, believe that every single Gentile is damned. The atheists for being, if nothing else, blasphemers, and the followers of every religion except Judaism for being, if nothing else, idolaters.

Btw your site's description of conversion to Judaism is nonsense in my experience. A former Christian, before she married her Jewish husband (whom I work with), spent years jumping through every hoop demanded of her by the Jewish authorities so that she could become a Jewess. In spite of that her parents in law STILL regarded her as a Gentile 20+ years later and treated her as an abomination. The result was that both she and her husband became bitterly antagonistic to ALL religion and became militant atheists.

[chosen people]

Originally Posted by Petergee

And according to the same site the oral Torah has been written down in the Talmud, which is available for anyone to read. So all Jewish sources, even the minority of Jewish sources which (bizarrely IMO) think that Christians are so stupid that they don't realise that worshipping anything or anyone which isn't God is idolatry, believe that every single Gentile is damned. The atheists for being, if nothing else, blasphemers, and the followers of every religion except Judaism for being, if nothing else, idolaters.

Btw your site's description of conversion to Judaism is nonsense in my experience. A former Christian, before she married her Jewish husband (whom I work with), spent years jumping through every hoop demanded of her by the Jewish authorities so that she could become a Jewess. In spite of that her parents in law STILL regarded her as a Gentile 20+ years later and treated her as an abomination. The result was that both she and her husband became bitterly antagonistic to ALL religion and became militant atheists.

No! The point is that even though the Roman pagans who brought about the spread of Chrisitianity and its break with Judaism required a human form to God in order to grasp and believe in Him (see for example this forum "what did Jesus look like?"- the correct answer, a traditional Yemenite Jew)
and even though being a religion for the masses Christianity was forced to break with God's law because these same Roman pagans lacked both universal male literacy and the required superiour intellectual capacity for its continued development in Chrisrtianity-You are not damned and going to Hell (Hell being another traditional pagan concept adopted by these former Roman pagans into Christianity).

As for your friend's wife conversion, under Jewish law a convert is to be treated as any other Jew born into the religion. I do not have the details but is possible that the conversion was non orthodox and not accepted by her in-laws or that the conversion was deemed by them to be insincere and merely for the purpose of marriage (for instance if she marked the Christmas holiday in some fashion). You may want to check the history of Catholic persecution of the Jews in regards to conversion to grasp the historical background.

[Petergee]

Originally Posted by chosen people

No! The point is that even though the Roman pagans who brought about the spread of Chrisitianity and its break with Judaism

Unhistorical balderdash. The Roman pagans had zero to do with it. At the time of the mutual excommunications between Christian Jews and those Jews who failed to see the fulfilment of the Old Covenant in Christ, there were very few Gentile Christians. And it wasn't until 300 to 400 years later that the majority of Romans converted to Christianity.

required a human form to God in order to grasp and believe in Him (see for example this forum "what did Jesus look like?"- the correct answer, a traditional Yemenite Jew)
and even though being a religion for the masses Christianity was forced to break with God's law because these same Roman pagans lacked both universal male literacy and the required superiour intellectual capacity for its continued development in Chrisrtianity-

Whoops, there goes your earlier denial that you think Jews are inherently superior to Gentiles. What a sad person you are.

You are not damned and going to Hell (Hell being another traditional pagan concept adopted by these former Roman pagans into Christianity).

Actually a Jewish belief. The Roman pagan Hades, was quite different and a not unpleasant place.

As for your friend's wife conversion, under Jewish law a convert is to be treated as any other Jew born into the religion. I do not have the details but is possible that the conversion was non orthodox and not accepted by her in-laws or that the conversion was deemed by them to be insincere and merely for the purpose of marriage (for instance if she marked the Christmas holiday in some fashion). You may want to check the history of Catholic persecution of the Jews in regards to conversion to grasp the historical background.

I guess you'd better kick out of your religion the 90%+ of "cradle" Jews who "mark the Christmas holiday in some fashion", leaving only the "pure Jews" like you. Why don't you imagine how you would feel if you were subjected to the treatment this poor woman was, and then have someone shrug it off with, ""well it's all good because a few generations ago some people who may have been your ancestors persecuted some people who may have been your persecutors' ancestors". Sick.

And to go O/t myself for a sec, I don't see how some of your "Noahide laws" come from Genesis 9. Where is the one about setting up law courts? And why do you leave out the prohibition of contraception (Genesis 9:7)?

[johnstown johnn]

The Talmud is a hateful piece of work. It spews insult and hatred towards the Son of God.

[chosen people]

Originally Posted by Petergee

Unhistorical balderdash. The Roman pagans had zero to do with it. At the time of the mutual excommunications between Christian Jews and those Jews who failed to see the fulfilment of the Old Covenant in Christ, there were very few Gentile Christians. And it wasn't until 300 to 400 years later that the majority of Romans converted to Christianity. Whoops, there goes your earlier denial that you think Jews are inherently superior to Gentiles. What a sad person you are. Actually a Jewish belief. The Roman pagan Hades, was quite different and a not unpleasant place.
I guess you'd better kick out of your religion the 90%+ of "cradle" Jews who "mark the Christmas holiday in some fashion", leaving only the "pure Jews" like you. Why don't you imagine how you would feel if you were subjected to the treatment this poor woman was, and then have someone shrug it off with, ""well it's all good because a few generations ago some people who may have been your ancestors persecuted some people who may have been your persecutors' ancestors". Sick.

And to go O/t myself for a sec, I don't see how some of your "Noahide laws" come from Genesis 9. Where is the one about setting up law courts? And why do you leave out the prohibition of contraception (Genesis 9:7)?

The growth of Christianity and the development of pagan influences (eg. trinity) are from the same time period. The small Jewish monotheistic sect of Christians of the first century in no way resembles Christianity of the third and fourth centuries with its pagan influences and belief in the divinity of Yehoshua bar Yosef..

There is no concept of Hell in Judaism. If you do not accept that it was intoduced to Catholicism through the general pagan influences on Christianity you must conclude that you received the concept of Hell as a special gift from the Jews. Your welcome.

There is absolutely no correlation between Jewish attributes and the Jewish belief that gentiles not only get into the world to come but actually have an easier time of it. It has nothing to do with superiority or inferiority.

However since you brought up the subject: Yes the Jewish people are a highly intelligent highly educated select group of people with a highly intellectual religion.

I realize that as a Catholic your a big fan of collective responsibity of "the Jews" so there is nothing to do but to accept personal blame along with the entire Jewish nation for the apparent mistreatment of your friends wife by her in laws. It is indeed a unique and special case where in laws have given their daughter in law a hard time.

Once again, if she was properly converted and is a practicing Jew, under Jewish law her in laws are obligated to treat her as if she was born to Judaism.

[chosen people]

Originally Posted by johnstown johnn

The Talmud is a hateful piece of work. It spews insult and hatred towards the Son of God.

For those interested in facts rather than Catholic antisemitic references to the Talmud once again see:

http://www.adl.org/presrele/asus_12/the_talmud.pdf

[AlexV]

The facts? Jews are just as capable, and guilty, of prejudice, hatred, and even genocide as any other people on earth.

[chosen people]

Originally Posted by AlexV

The facts? Jews are just as capable, and guilty, of prejudice, hatred, and even genocide as any other people on earth.

Unfortunately so true. There are so many examples where Jews forced good Catholics to live in ghettoes, wear special clothes marking them as Catholics, stripped them of all civil and legal rights, forced converted them to Judaism, expelled them seizing all their property and of course mass murder just because they were Catholics. Let's not forget how the Jews killed little Catholic children to bake their Matzah's during their passover celebrations . Let's not forget how the Jews control all the money and all the media and use that power for the sole purpose of undermineing the Catholic religion. Let's not forget how the Jews plan and make all the wars in the world for good Catholic boys to die in while they advance their interests and make tons of money. Let's not forget how pushy and loud and clannish they are. Let's not forget how that Jew Marx invented Communisim to persecute God fearing Catholics or that Jew Freud invented sex to lead Catholic daughters astray or that Jew Einstein to discredit Catholic beliefs or how Jews are behind all the abortions in the world to kill good Catholic babies which is "the real holocaust" or how the Jews are destroying Christmas and Easter and other Catholic holidays with their Jewish ACLU shyster lawyers or how the Jews are trying to take Christianity out of our good Christian Countries and how now they even want to tell us how to pray and what to pray as if its a Jews business what we teach our children about them.

Those "facts" about Jews?

[AlexV]

Again, playing the perpetual victim is unbecoming, as well as unproductive.

One wonders how Palestinians...both Christian and Arab...and Lebanese...both Christian and Arab...would react to the implicit idea in your postings that the Jews are the perpetual victims of other religions' hostility.

But that brings us very far from the thread. What's next, "Chosen People?" Shall we ban Christians from reading the New Testament at Mass, because it talks about how the inheritance will be taken away from you, and given to a nation that will bear much fruit?

I guess that's pretty "offensive".

[Philothea53]

Well, chosen people, you sure did read a lot into AlexV's remark. Do you disagree that Jews are just as capable of human wrongdoing as Catholics or any other group of peoples? I didn't see where AlexV even mentioned any of those things you listed. Guilty conscience?

[Abira]

Chosen people,

I've been watching your responses and do not feel you have answered peoples questions specifically...I read the article you linked to and it simply stated that references to Jesus were few and maybe did not follow political correctness by modern standards but are blown out of propertion...the article did not address anything specifically - and your above post I felt was very angry and uncalled for.

Specifically now:

Sanhedrin 106a - Says of Jesus' mother: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters."

A passage from Sanhedrin 106 gloats over the early age at which Jesus died: "Hast thou heard how old Balaam (Jesus) was?--He replied: It is not actually stated but since it is written, Bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days it follows that he was thirty-three or thirty-four years old."

For example, on the website of the Orthodox Jewish Hasidic Lubavitch group--one of the largest in the world--we find the following statement, complete with Talmudic citations:

"The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of 'Jesus the Nazarene':

1) He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a).

2) He was sexually immoral, worshipped statues of stone (a brick is mentioned), was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and refused to repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a).

3) He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used procedures that involved cutting his flesh, which is also explicitly banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b).

now I will freely admitt that I'm not a Jewsish scholar, and it may be that these concerns have been addressed elsewhere on the forums so as not to derail the intentions of the OP...perhaps you can direct us somewhere to continue this discussion, or at least answer the questions put to you other then saying: the references are few and small.

For all men have sinned, and the Jewish faith and Christian faith have sins of their own but you seem to believe your history completely clean! Get real!

[MaryD7]

Originally Posted by chosen people

Unfortunately so true. There are so many examples where Jews forced good Catholics to live in ghettoes, wear special clothes marking them as Catholics, stripped them of all civil and legal rights, forced converted them to Judaism, expelled them seizing all their property and of course mass murder jist because they were Catholics. Let's not forget how the Jews killed little Catholic children to bake their Matzah's during their passover celebrations . Let's not forget how the Jews control all the money and all the media and use that power for the sole purpose of undermineing the Catholic religion. Let's not forget how the Jews plan and make all the wars in the world for good Catholic boys to die in while they advance their interests and make tons of money. Let's not forget how pushy and loud and clannish they are. Let's not forget how that Jew Marx invented Communisim to persecute God fearing Catholics or that Jew Freud invented sex to lead Catholic daughters astray or that Jew Einstein to discredit Catholic beliefs or how Jews are behind all the abortions in the world to kill good Catholic babies which is "the real holocaust" or how the Jews are destroying Christmas and Easter and other Catholic holidays with their Jewish ACLU shyster lawyers or how the Jews are trying to take Christianity out of our good Christian Countries and how now they even want to tell us how to pray and what to pray as if its a Jews business what we teach our children about them.

Those "facts" about Jews?

Chosen, I was with you up until this post. I'm not sure what your experiences with other religions have been but given your posts, especially the one above, it seems that they haven't been positive.

All people have the ability to be prejudiced and some carry those feelings over into their actions. This has been done since history began. Nobody has a lock on being the victim nor can any one person of a particular group be labeled the aggressor. I'm sure that there have been things done in the name of Judaism that make you cringe just as I cringe when I read of some things done in the name of Jesus Christ. But that does not make either one of us guilty of the crimes. We can only go about our daily lives giving respect to each other, as we are taught to do.

What is it that you want? Do you want acknowledgement that the Jewish people were mistreated? Do you want an apology? Do you want to establish understanding of why the Jewish community may be leery of other religions? Please explain. I honestly want to know.

[chosen people]

Originally Posted by Philothea53

Well, chosen people, you sure did read a lot into AlexV's remark. Do you disagree that Jews are just as capable of human wrongdoing as Catholics or any other group of peoples? I didn't see where AlexV even mentioned any of those things you listed. Guilty conscience?

Its about the attempt to refute statements not on the basis of the statement and its validity but by presenting an abstract argument of "symetry". Instead of dealing with the truth or falsehood of Catholic antisemitism you merely reverse the argument that Jews have been as bad or in this case are "capable" of being as bad.

Certain organizations love these kind of symetry arguments which take nothing into account and deflect any real discussion (see the excuses for 9/11). In this specific case a poster made an outrageous false antisemitc comment about the content of the Talmud and I posted a link which deals with the falsehood of these comments. The response was not to deal with the truth or falsehood of the statement about the Talmud and the underlying root causes for the antisemitic comment but to change the discussion to one about the Jewish people in general. That type of argument is to my mind neither valid or productive.

Incidentally most of the "facts" about "the Jews" in my reply were based on posts in this forum.

[Abira]

Originally Posted by chosen people

In this specific case a poster made an outrageous false antisemitc comment about the content of the Talmud and I posted a link which deals with the falsehood of these comments. The response was not to deal with the truth or falsehood of the statement about the Talmud and the underlying root causes for the antisemitic comment

well thanks for that label of antisemitism...

the actual comments I posted are supported by some Orthodox Jews and I fully support their right to believe whatever they believe and to teach and preach their message to their followers...

just as the church has the right to preach salvation to everyone in the OP statement.

So unless these Orthodox Jews are anti-semitic (and i doubt you can throw casual words like that at them!) then my valid point is to say that your cleaner than clean attitude does not hold up...and at the end of things you have to get down and dirty with specifics... you can't make accusations about Christianity in broad terms and then float off again... I want a site, or some words from yourself that explains the post ignored by you in specific terms.

[Abira]

your article before was very unspecific in its biblical and factual content...this is the first article that came up when I searched from a Jewish source and it links their teachings with Bible verses wit regards to Jesus.

It's actually an ineresting read regardless of this thread into how they interpret. I have no problem with them preaching what they believe in their hearts, just as you should have no problem chilling out about Christians praying for Jewish conversion.

http://www.noahide.com/yeshu.htm