Celebrations of the TLM are not going to mushroom all over the world

[OutinChgoburbs]

The CMRI have no legitimate commentary on the motu, except to express their own opinion, until they reconcile with Rome.

[bkovacs]

Why this traditionalist is looking East to the Orthodox Church to fill my spiritual needs. The Divine Liturgy is just as spiritual and reverent as the TLM. And in both the Divine Liturgy and TLM, the priest faces east (AKA turn back on people as misinformed liberal , and modernist Roman Catholics call it). Both traditional Catholics and the Orthodox respect and defend "tradition". And both the Divine Liturgy and the TLM of 1962 show it. But I agree the mainstream use of the TLM, will be long off and after my lifetime. Thanks to the liturgical abuses of Vatican 2, No matter what most Bishops, Archbishops, and modernist priests think. THEY ARE BLIND TO TRADITION!!. And yes having the TLM of 1962 is TRADITION!. . There was never a opposition to the Divine Liturgy in Orthodoxy as there is opposition to the TLM in Roman Catholicism. Even in my own family. They like current Mass.

Originally Posted by KofC660

At most there will be a few more celebrations of the TLM per diocese, with most diocese having none.

The idea that the TLM will become commonplace is pure fantasy, cooked up, for the most part, by overactive imaginations of "traditional Catholics" that identify "traditional Catholicism" with only the liturgy, and, in reality, would want NOTHING to do with theological, philosophical, and sociological aspects of "traditional Catholicism".

Let me remind everyone: 1950's America is a FAR CRY from 12th century* Christendom, even if the liturgy is similar.

*note: By the way, I'm not referring to the differences in wealth or technology! It goes MUCH MUCH deeper than that, and if you don't understand, then you are living proof of my point.

[Ad Deum]

Originally Posted by KofC660

The idea that the TLM will become commonplace is pure fantasy, cooked up, for the most part, by overactive imaginations of "traditional Catholics" that identify "traditional Catholicism" with only the liturgy, and, in reality, would want NOTHING to do with theological, philosophical, and sociological aspects of "traditional Catholicism".

I agree it's not just the liturgy that has problem; theologically, phisophically, and sociological we are in deep mess too.

Pax
Instaurare omnis in Christo

[lak611]

Originally Posted by stmaria

Is this what Vatican II meant by active participation?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRULNTperWE

This video is irrelevant to this thread because the thread is about the Mass, not Eucharistic Adoration.

[bkovacs]

My parents outright said "know one can understand Latin, even the priests. Forget about it is never going to happen in our church. No one wants it. Why should we change everything because of a minority. Who is going to pay for the missals and vestments. We like our mass the way it is. We like to participate. I ended there!!.
And decided, that I will never step one foot in a Modern Roman Catholic Church ever again, until this mindset and lack of tradition is swept away from the majority of Modern Roman Catholics. I will not drive 80 miles every Sunday and feast day to celebrate my faith, the TLM, when I know they can do it a few miles away, but are defiant of the Popes wishes for a return of Catholic Tradition!. And they call themselves Catholics!. Sad. More like Protestants to me. So since the Orthodox Church is considered a "Church" according to the Popes current document. I have no choice spiritually but to start fully attending St Phillip's Orthodox Church, for the salvation of my soul and belief of "tradition", with others who share those same values.. And not those who defy "Tradition" and it's rich spiritual value, which we all know the church needs desperately, and prefer Protestant like mentalities, and liturgical practices.

[BobP123]

Also, this link...is this an order that is in union with Rome?

Doesn't matter to the point. I only used one link. There are many other links to this preface which was signed by Pope Paul VI. I first found it in Gamber's book, which was prefaced by Cardinal Ratzinger.

Here's perhaps a better link: http://www.fisheaters.com/ottavianiintervention.html

Here Ottaviani made it an issue which forced the Pope to redefine the definition. However the text, on which the original definition was based, was not changed to accomodate the new definition.

If this isn't enough to convince you, type in "Lord's Supper Novus Ordo" in a google search. You needn't try to discredit my sources.

[lak611]

Originally Posted by bkovacs

My parents outright said "know one can understand Latin, even the priests. Forget about it is never going to happen in our church. No one wants it. Why should we change everything because of a minority. Who is going to pay for the missals and vestments. We like our mass the way it is. We like to participate. I ended there!!.
And decided, that I will never step one foot in a Modern Roman Catholic Church ever again, until this mindset and lack of tradition is swept away from the majority of Modern Roman Catholics. I will not drive 80 miles every Sunday and feast day to celebrate my faith, the TLM, when I know they can do it a few miles away, but are defiant of the Popes wishes for a return of Catholic Tradition!. And they call themselves Catholics!. Sad. More like Protestants to me. So since the Orthodox Church is considered a "Church" according to the Popes current document. I have no choice spiritually but to start fully attending St Phillip's Orthodox Church, for the salvation of my soul and belief of "tradition", with others who share those same values.. And not those who defy "Tradition" and it's rich spiritual value, which we all know the church needs desperately, and prefer Protestant like mentalities, and liturgical practices.

Are there any Eastern Rite Catholic Churches that are closer to where you live? I have been to Byzantine Rite Divine Liturgy, and it was very traditional.

[bkovacs]

Originally Posted by lak611

Are there any Eastern Rite Catholic Churches that are closer to where you live? I have been to Byzantine Rite Divine Liturgy, and it was very traditional.

The Eastern Rite Catholic Churches are also caving in to secularism. Changing the translation of the Divine Liturgy to be all inclusive, and sounding more modern, like Vatican 2 did with the NO Mass. The Orthodox tried that years ago from what I have heard, but it failed. So they went back to a non-inclusive translation of the Divine Liturgy, with poetic style English. Because of the protests that took place. Many EC are protesting it, but the Ruthenian Catholic Bishops aren't listening, because it is not politically correct to have a non-inclusive translation. Hence why the Orthodox Church is my preferred choice. They stick with tradition more.

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthr...oard/15/page/1

[lak611]

Originally Posted by bkovacs

The Eastern Rite Catholic Churches are also caving in to secularism. Changing the translation of the Divine Liturgy to be all inclusive, and sounding more modern, like Vatican 2 did with the NO Mass. The Orthodox tried that years ago from what I have heard, but it failed. So they went back to a non-inclusive translation of the Divine Liturgy, with poetic style English. Because of the protests that took place. Many EC are protesting it, but the Ruthenian Catholic Bishops aren't listening, because it is not politically correct to have a non-inclusive translation. Hence why the Orthodox Church is my preferred choice. They stick with tradition more.

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthr...oard/15/page/1

I can understand your point then. I went to Divine Liturgy prior to 2004. I was not aware of any changes because I have not been to Divine Liturgy since the revisions occurred. I read the link, and I am not sure if any revisions actually have been put in place, or if they are just proposed revisions. Do you know?

[bkovacs]

Originally Posted by bkovacs

The Eastern Rite Catholic Churches are also caving in to secularism. Changing the translation of the Divine Liturgy to be all inclusive, and sounding more modern, like Vatican 2 did with the NO Mass. The Orthodox tried that years ago from what I have heard, but it failed. So they went back to a non-inclusive translation of the Divine Liturgy, with poetic style English. Because of the protests that took place. Many EC are protesting it, but the Ruthenian Catholic Bishops aren't listening, because it is not politically correct to have a non-inclusive translation. Hence why the Orthodox Church is my preferred choice. They stick with tradition more.

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthr...oard/15/page/1

I don't wish to convert anyone, but this is just my feelings.

[lak611]

Originally Posted by bkovacs

I don't wish to convert anyone, but this is just my feelings.

I read the link you provided but was unsure if any revisions actually have been put in place or if the revisions have just been proposed and are being discussed. I went to Divine Liturgy prior to 2004 and have not been to one since, so I did not even know about any revisions. Has the Divine Liturgy actually been revised, or is the Church just talking about revising it?

[bkovacs]

I am starting to think now that there will be a huge split in the Catholic Church not only over the Motu Propio, but also on other things as well. A Modern Roman Catholic Church vs a Traditional Roman Catholic Church. And who knows the Modern Roman Catholic Church may not have a Pope to follow. Since his wishes are being defied already by his clergy. He is siding with the Traditional Roman Catholic Church already. Good for him. Are we seeing a second Reformation in the works, from the split in the clergy on just the Mass and Tradition.

[bkovacs]

Originally Posted by lak611

I read the link you provided but was unsure if any revisions actually have been put in place or if the revisions have just been proposed and are being discussed. I went to Divine Liturgy prior to 2004 and have not been to one since, so I did not even know about any revisions. Has the Divine Liturgy actually been revised, or is the Church just talking about revising it?

One guy on the forum has said it is final
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthr...037#Post244037

[bkovacs]

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2007/07/dioce...um-pontificum/

Sound like defiance to me.

[lak611]

Originally Posted by bkovacs

One guy on the forum has said it is final
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthr...037#Post244037

Thanks for the information showing this.