Celebrations of the TLM are not going to mushroom all over the world - Page 6

patrick457 · #76 Jul 21, '07, 6:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by KofC660

Here are some examples of the liturgy the VAST VAST VAST majority of "young Catholics" expect:

They are not craving the Vetus Ordo.

Well, don't count me in on that.

I think that the TLM may or may not sprout up like mushrooms but that depends on the demand. YOU, WE have a responsibility to teach the youth about this Extraordinary form of the Roman Rite. Instead of complaining and being pessimistic, why not make the people especially the children learn about it; after all, 'The youth is the hope of the future.'

BobP123 · #77 Jul 21, '07, 7:29 pm

Quote:

I think that the TLM may or may not sprout up like mushrooms but that depends on the demand.

We need a supply first.

Unless you want to buy futures .

Demand always makes me think of the commodities markets.

**lak611** · #78 Jul 21, '07, 7:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobP123

We need a supply first.

That will require training of priests. There are a lot of priests who need to learn Latin.

jstreets · #79 Jul 22, '07, 3:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by KofC660

Here are some examples of the liturgy the VAST VAST VAST majority of "young Catholics" expect:

They are not craving the Vetus Ordo.

That's what they expect because probably all of those kids in that picture have never seen a Latin Mass. Why can't we be able to show them a liturgy that has stood the test of time, without crumbling.

Catholic Dude · #80 Jul 22, '07, 4:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jstreets

That's what they expect because probably all of those kids in that picture have never seen a Latin Mass. Why can't we be able to show them a liturgy that has stood the test of time, without crumbling.

What do you mean?...The TLM has been virtually restricted.

jstreets · #81 Jul 22, '07, 4:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholic Dude

What do you mean?...The TLM has been virtually restricted.

Im saying the young people aren't "craving" TLM because it has been restricted. None of them probably really even know about it except from what they might hear from their parents/grandparents.

otjm · #82 Jul 23, '07, 9:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkovacs

My parents outright said "know one can understand Latin, even the priests. Forget about it is never going to happen in our church. No one wants it. Why should we change everything because of a minority. Who is going to pay for the missals and vestments. We like our mass the way it is. We like to participate. I ended there!!.
And decided, that I will never step one foot in a Modern Roman Catholic Church ever again, until this mindset and lack of tradition is swept away from the majority of Modern Roman Catholics. I will not drive 80 miles every Sunday and feast day to celebrate my faith, the TLM, when I know they can do it a few miles away, but are defiant of the Popes wishes for a return of Catholic Tradition!. And they call themselves Catholics!. Sad. More like Protestants to me. So since the Orthodox Church is considered a "Church" according to the Popes current document. I have no choice spiritually but to start fully attending St Phillip's Orthodox Church, for the salvation of my soul and belief of "tradition", with others who share those same values.

. And not those who defy "Tradition" and it's rich spiritual value, which we all know the church needs desperately, and prefer Protestant like mentalities, and liturgical practices.

Considering that the Church has said that attendance at an Orthodox Mass does not fulfill your Sunday obligation, one would hope that you might reconsider.

THurifer2 · #83 Aug 5, '07, 9:26 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaixGioiaAmor

As a "contemporary liturgist", I can tell you ,.

No you cannot tell me...taking a 1 week class in Liturgy does NOT make you a liturgist..please refrain from claiming to be someone you are not..it is false impersonation and in matters of religion. I am in year two of 7 years of diaconate formation I am certain of one thing...I will never claim to be a liturgist...That is a title that requires credentials beyond a 1 week seminar.

AlexV · #84 Aug 5, '07, 9:29 am

No "liturgist" of any serious academic standing can claim to be such unless they are proficient in Latin and ancient Greek. Are you, Peace-Joy-Love?

Conciliar · #85 Aug 5, '07, 12:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaixGioiaAmor

As a "contemporary liturgist", I can tell you that I don't feel the need to fill every vacant moment with sound during the mass. In fact, I have long said that we need more silence AT APPROPRIATE TIMES...

What was originally expressed was the belief that the time of procession to the table is a time for silence to gather our thoughts on the Eucharist. To that I could not emphatically disagree more. There may be times for silent prayer during mass - that is definately not one. The act of receiving Eucharist - of receiving that sacrifice, of the real presense in COMMUNION with each other, and sharing a common song as a form of unity - we could unpack the theology here all night there is so much there.

As a "contemporary liturgist?" Really, Paix? Not to embarass you personally, but this is too illustrative to ignore.

In your introductory post back in May you shared that you are a music director and organist who took a one week course in liturgy. Now you're identifying yourself as a liturgist with insights regarding the matter of preparing for Communion that would take "all night to unpack." Wow.

I wish I could say that it would be shocking if you really do have substantial input into the liturgy in your parish, but unfortunately I can't. That's the biggest issue.

The point you make in and of itself is ludicrous. Singing a song together does absolutely NOTHING to facilitate communion. No matter how good it feels. Communion is NOT fostered, properly speaking, in the "act of receiving Eucharist together." If that were the case, communion would be ordered toward just those in the building instead of "advancing the peace and unity of the whole world."

It is the Eucharistic Christ Himself who affects communion - not truly us, and certainly not by singing. The best that we can do is approach the Lord free of mortal sin and join our personal sacrifice to His perfect Sacrifice. That is why silent reflection during the preparation of the altar has long been seen as important. But, with all due respect, that was before organists were considered liturgists.

Again - while much of what I wrote applies to you and your post, my broader point, the one you illustrate well, is that in too many places, the untrained and poorly formed are allowed to treat the Mass as their own little project.

THurifer2 · #86 Aug 6, '07, 5:19 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conciliar

is that in too many places, the untrained and poorly formed are allowed to treat the Mass as their own little project.

This is precisely why "contemporary liturgists" hate the prospect of Traditional Latin Mass...it threatens their little project and strips them of the "power" they get.

Of course they have animosity towards the Tridentine Mass...one loses status when one is not needed. But then again they are not really needed anywhere outside of the Childrens pageant.
I am sure there are countless stories about "territorial" liturgists.

There is really no need for them.

AlexV · #87 Aug 6, '07, 6:45 am

Not so, actually, for as long as seminary education is often less than desirable. I have served more than one diocese in a liturgical capacity, since liturgy IS about more than just "doing the red" and "saying the black". And yes, I am what most would call a traditionalist. The classic lay liturgist often serves as a Master of Ceremonies at major functions...oftentimes, no cleric present had the knowledge of the rites that I had.

PaixGioiaAmor · #88 Aug 6, '07, 8:41 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by THurifer2

No you cannot tell me...taking a 1 week class in Liturgy does NOT make you a liturgist..please refrain from claiming to be someone you are not..it is false impersonation and in matters of religion. I am in year two of 7 years of diaconate formation I am certain of one thing...I will never claim to be a liturgist...That is a title that requires credentials beyond a 1 week seminar.

You are greatly simplifying my experience and education.

And yes, I am a liturgist. Call me a bad one if you want; but I get a paycheck working full time in liturgical capacities.

AlexV · #89 Aug 6, '07, 8:43 am

Lots of people get paychecks for things they're not qualified for.

The language of the Roman Rite is Latin. Any self-respecting liturgist would be quite proficient in the language of their own Rite, not to mention ancient Greek, which is so necessary for a full understanding of the liturgy.

In any case, Rome has spoken in clarification: the Roman Rite has two usages. A self-respecting liturgist would be well-versed in them both.

PaixGioiaAmor · #90 Aug 6, '07, 8:45 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conciliar

As a "contemporary liturgist?" Really, Paix? Not to embarass you personally, but this is too illustrative to ignore.

In your introductory post back in May you shared that you are a music director and organist who took a one week course in liturgy. Now you're identifying yourself as a liturgist with insights regarding the matter of preparing for Communion that would take "all night to unpack." Wow.

As well as plenty of continuing education, as well as personal study and reading, as well as experience working with many great liturgists ...

I wish I could say that it would be shocking if you really do have substantial input into the liturgy in your parish, but unfortunately I can't. That's the biggest issue.

The point you make in and of itself is ludicrous. Singing a song together does absolutely NOTHING to facilitate communion. No matter how good it feels. Communion is NOT fostered, properly speaking, in the "act of receiving Eucharist together." If that were the case, communion would be ordered toward just those in the building instead of "advancing the peace and unity of the whole world."

It is the Eucharistic Christ Himself who affects communion - not truly us, and certainly not by singing. The best that we can do is approach the Lord free of mortal sin and join our personal sacrifice to His perfect Sacrifice. That is why silent reflection during the preparation of the altar has long been seen as important. But, with all due respect, that was before organists were considered liturgists.

Again - while much of what I wrote applies to you and your post, my broader point, the one you illustrate well, is that in too many places, the untrained and poorly formed are allowed to treat the Mass as their own little project.

Whine and get upset all you want.

Discount me and my kind all you would like, but we are the ones making the decisions at the liturgies that you come on here and write nasty posts about and lament that your bishop won't listen to you. By the way, my bishop usually listens to MY points. It would seem that you should want to foster conversation with us, have a dialogue, and yes, be educated - maybe then common ground could be found and you could get something done. As long as you just write us off and attack people like me personally, you will get nowhere but upset.

By the way - I know more about liturgy than most priests, since in most seminaries they take less than the equivalent of a one week course in liturgy.