Who are the deserving poor? - Page 7

ALLFORHIM · #91 Jul 23, '07, 5:37 am

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Originally Posted by boppaid

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Great post! What a wonderful thing you do for your community! I have to say I do agree with you ... people caught abusing the system by committing fraud need to be cut off.

Thank you

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I think they need to still get their welfare check, but it should be adjusted accordingly, based on their new paycheck.

That is exactly right!! I dont understand why the state systems cant just do that.

Other then meeting with each indidvidual--HOW HARD CAN THAT BE!!!!

Maybe the problem is that it is TOO EASY TO DO

Our government seems to likt to take the longest path when accomplishing something.

Trader · #92 Jul 23, '07, 5:48 am

One of the problems is the current US economy concerns the possibilty of people losing their homes due to the collapse of subprime lending. A small part of the problem was outright fraud on both sides. Some borrowers lied about their income and some lenders made loans they knew could not be repaid.

The largest segment of people in trouble are decent people who streched a little too far. Some people wanted four bedroom houses and two new cars when they had the resources to afford a three bedroom house and two used cars. Others bought condominiums with an ocean view when they could only afford a place a couple blocks off the ocean.

So, do we demand federal aid for people who want to live beyond their means? Are families in three bedroom houses with two used cars the oppressed poor? I live in a three bedroom house with one 10 year old vehicle and some of you would consider me rich. Where do I sign up for my handout? My JP Morgan stock dropped over $2 last week.

**vern humphrey** · #93 Jul 23, '07, 6:45 am

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Originally Posted by cynic

do yo have any reply, any counter argument? The old 'me against the world' and 'others are my enemy' theories.

Before you get a counter-argument, you have to have an initial argument. You haven't offered one yet.

cynic · #94 Jul 23, '07, 3:16 pm

Yes I have, that right wing rhetoric is a ruse to take away the most minimal and hard won protection for those who need it most.

**whatevergirl** · #95 Jul 23, '07, 3:21 pm

I like the poster, Man's, thoughts on this....thanks for that insight, Man. Interesting.

**vern humphrey** · #96 Jul 23, '07, 3:24 pm

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Originally Posted by cynic

Yes I have, that right wing rhetoric is a ruse to take away the most minimal and hard won protection for those who need it most.

The intellectual brilliance of your argument, the in-depth research you present, and the breath-taking eloquence of your debating style takes my breath away.

emily47017 · #97 Jul 23, '07, 4:39 pm

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Originally Posted by Trader

The largest segment of people in trouble are decent people who streched a little too far. Some people wanted four bedroom houses and two new cars when they had the resources to afford a three bedroom house and two used cars. Others bought condominiums with an ocean view when they could only afford a place a couple blocks off the ocean.

are you sure about this? do you have a study to back it up? i hesitate to make any counter-assertions, not really knowing anything about the demographics of poverty today... but it seems unlikely to me.

excessive debt is definitely a huge problem today, with a lot of different causes -- fraud, as you mentioned, being a biggie, and predatory lending, and just plain poor judgment.

but i personally wouldn't lump all bankruptcies under the banner of poverty. to me, poverty means working as hard as you can and still being unable to obtain the necessities: food, housing, utilities, medical care, decent education or job training.

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So, do we demand federal aid for people who want to live beyond their means? Are families in three bedroom houses with two used cars the oppressed poor? I live in a three bedroom house with one 10 year old vehicle and some of you would consider me rich. Where do I sign up for my handout? My JP Morgan stock dropped over $2 last week.

i think this is an important point you're making. not everyone who feels like they're struggling is actually struggling. current welfare policies, as generally ****ed up as they are, try to take that into account. when they're evaluating whether or not you're eligible, they exclude certain assets, like a car you're using to get to work (and they do pay attention to its blue book value) or a house you're living in. in calculating food stamp benefits, the major factors seem to be the size of your family and the proportion of your income that's spent on housing.

but they might look at your stock and tell you not to slam the door on your way out.

**vern humphrey** · #98 Jul 23, '07, 4:52 pm

Which brings me to a recurring point -- why don't we teach economics in school?

Why don't we teach kids about compound interest, the Rule of 78, the Time Value of Money? Why don't we teach them the difference between stocks, bonds and mutual funds?

Why don't kids graduate from high school knowing the folly of going into debt?

cynic · #99 Jul 23, '07, 5:06 pm

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Originally Posted by vern humphrey

The intellectual brilliance of your argument, the in-depth research you present, and the breath-taking eloquence of your debating style takes my breath away.

Debating with you is like clapping with one hand.

**whatevergirl** · #**100** Jul 23, '07, 5:32 pm

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Originally Posted by vern humphrey

Which brings me to a recurring point -- why don't we teach economics in school?

Why don't we teach kids about compound interest, the Rule of 78, the Time Value of Money? Why don't we teach them the difference between stocks, bonds and mutual funds?

Why don't kids graduate from high school knowing the folly of going into debt?

some kids have a hard time constructing a sentence

...I want to know why my kids are not reading the classics like I did, when I went to school.

I will say though, that I graduated 20 yrs ago from high school...and I did not learn economics, and I went to a very high rated northeastern school, affluent area. I guess the bureaucrats don't believe in kids learning principles and practices that they will use in every day life?

emily47017 · #**101** Jul 23, '07, 5:40 pm

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Originally Posted by vern humphrey

Which brings me to a recurring point -- why don't we teach economics in school?

excellent question! gah!

my high school had a "life skills" course that was 1/2 semester and covered stuff like budgeting and balancing checkbooks... i suppose they also advised against 25% APR credit cards, too, but i don't know because i never took it, nor did most of my class. if algebra is a year-long required course, why not econ. 101?

**vern humphrey** · #**102** Jul 23, '07, 5:49 pm

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Originally Posted by whatevergirl

some kids have a hard time constructing a sentence

...I want to know why my kids are not reading the classics like I did, when I went to school.

And another failed bureaucracy raises its ugly head -- the public school system.

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Originally Posted by whatevergirl

I will say though, that I graduated 20 yrs ago from high school...and I did not learn economics, and I went to a very high rated northeastern school, affluent area. I guess the bureaucrats don't believe in kids learning principles and practices that they will use in every day life?

Far more important for them to learn about "diversity" and "sexual self-awareness."

Trader · #**103** Jul 23, '07, 8:51 pm

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Originally Posted by emily47017

are you sure about this? do you have a study to back it up? i hesitate to make any counter-assertions, not really knowing anything about the demographics of poverty today... but it seems unlikely to me.

Actually, no I am not sure about this and there is no study to back it up yet. A wave of foreclosures has not yet started and could possibly be avoided, so there is no way to do a study at this time. My information seems to be a concensus of analysts appearing on CNBC and I paid better attention before I started spending so much time on this site.

What we do know is that housing prices have slowed their rise in most places and declined in some. We do know for sure that interest rates have risen over the last several years and that adjustable rate mortgages that were very popular when rates were lower will be resetting at higher rates. We also know for sure that late payments are rising and borrowers typically wait way too long before contacting their lenders when they are having problems. I talked to a mortgage broker today who some real horror stories. One was a family with a $72,000 balloon payment due in 15 days and they were just starting to shop for a refinance, even though they had 15 YEARS notice that the balloon payment was part of the original mortgage.

You have to be very careful about government poverty statistics. They are mostly about income reported on tax returns. They have much less information on household assets. They also don't count noncash benefits you mentioned. Medicaid, food stamps, child care, housing vouchers, job training and other education programs, assistance from private charites and gifts from family members are not reported on a tax return.

In 2002 I was dirt poor by their standards. It was the third consecutive year of 20% declines in the S&P 500 and my income was less than zero. To someone not in government a person with significant financial assets is not poor with or without income in a particular year.

Hellisreal · #**104** Jul 24, '07, 12:40 am

I often wonder if Mary had not said a word at the wedding ....

Would the water changed to wine?

Were the bride and groom at the wedding at Cana deserving poor?

Trader · #**105** Jul 24, '07, 4:35 am

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Originally Posted by Hellisreal

I often wonder if Mary had not said a word at the wedding ....

Would the water changed to wine?

Were the bride and groom at the wedding at Cana deserving poor?

I think the Church is pretty clear that everything we receive from God is His free gift to us and is not deserved.