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  #1  
Old Jun 3, '04, 12:43 pm
Ham1 Ham1 is offline
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Default Valid Mass? Valid Consecration?

Okay....

Can a valid mass be celebrated without wine, if for extreme reasons none is available (think concentration camp)?

Can a valid consecration be performed outside the mass, for serious reason (like above)?

Thanks!
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  #2  
Old Jun 3, '04, 1:14 pm
dcs dcs is offline
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Default Re: Valid Mass? Valid Consecration?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ham1
Can a valid mass be celebrated without wine, if for extreme reasons none is available (think concentration camp)?
No, both bread and wine are essential. In fact, the Sacrifice is not complete until the priest receives Holy Communion.

Quote:
Can a valid consecration be performed outside the mass, for serious reason (like above)?
A valid consecration can be done outside of Mass, but I don't know if there are any circumstances in which it would not be illicit. It is a mortal sin to consecrate the elements outside of the celebration of Mass.
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Old Jun 3, '04, 1:41 pm
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Katholish Katholish is offline
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Default Re: Valid Mass? Valid Consecration?

Can. 927 It is absolutely wrong, even in urgent and extreme necessity, to consecrate one element without the other, or even to consecrate both outside the eucharistic celebration.

The Holy Eucharist can still be validly consecrated if both species are not present, but this is always gravely wrong. The Bread is transubstantiated the moment that it is consecrated, even before the wine is transubstantiated. If a priest were to die between the two, then the first is still validly consecrated.

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal:
324: "If the priest notices after the consecration or as he receives communion that water instead of wine was poured into the chalice, he pours the water into another container, then pours wine with water into the chalice and consecrates it. He says only part of the institution narrative related to the consecration of the chalice, without being obliged to consecrate bread again."
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Old Jun 3, '04, 4:26 pm
NWUArmyROTC NWUArmyROTC is offline
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Default Re: Valid Mass? Valid Consecration?

Here's a question. What if the bread is improper matter, then presumably, no transubstantiation occurs, will it occur for the wine as well, or is it a all or nothing situation.
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Old Jun 3, '04, 4:44 pm
Karl Keating Karl Keating is offline
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Default Re: Valid Mass? Valid Consecration?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NWUArmyROTC
Here's a question. What if the bread is improper matter, then presumably, no transubstantiation occurs, will it occur for the wine as well, or is it a all or nothing situation.
Transubstantiation does not depend on the sequence. The wine could be consecrated before the bread, in theory. I don't think any rite of the Mass ever provided for that, because the consecratory formula always has mirrored the Gospel accounts of the Last Supper.
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Old Jun 3, '04, 6:11 pm
dcs dcs is offline
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Default Re: Valid Mass? Valid Consecration?

IIRC the Didache seems to call for the consecration of the wine before that of the bread but there is some doubt as to its authority.
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Old Jun 4, '04, 10:57 am
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Katholish Katholish is offline
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Default Re: Valid Mass? Valid Consecration?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NWUArmyROTC
Here's a question. What if the bread is improper matter, then presumably, no transubstantiation occurs, will it occur for the wine as well, or is it a all or nothing situation.
The bread would not be transubstantiated if the matter was present, but the wine could be validly consecrated even if the bread is not. Remember that both what was formerly the wine and/or what was formerly bread are both become the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ. What was bread does become "just" the Body of Christ, nor does wine become "just" the Blood of Christ. That is why it is not necessary that they be done together though it would be illicit not to. This is also why the Eucharist is often only distributed under the one species.
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Old Jun 4, '04, 10:59 am
dcs dcs is offline
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Default Re: Valid Mass? Valid Consecration?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katholish
The bread would not be transubstantiated if the matter was present, but the wine could be validly consecrated even if the bread is not. Remember that both what was formerly the wine and/or what was formerly bread are both become the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ. What was bread does become "just" the Body of Christ, nor does wine become "just" the Blood of Christ. That is why it is not necessary that they be done together though it would be illicit not to. This is also why the Eucharist is often only distributed under the one species.
Right, but what has happened won't be a Mass. The Sacrifice requires the consecration of both elements, as well as the Communion of the priest.
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