Old Mass, New Appeal [Akin]

[the phoenix]

Originally Posted by Holy Roller

I tried to covered all three of Abira’s areas with my actual experiences in Michigan while I was a teenager. While covering the, “wider appeal of the old mass” , I thought that it would be best for me to post my actual perception the old mass, and let Abira decide for himself if he wanted to go back to that period of time. Remember, during that period there was no abortions, no birth control pills, women stayed home, men supported the family, there were hardly any women professional people, the restrooms down south said, “colored”, the schools were not integrated, and, etc, etc. The list is long.

Since we're sharing our actual perceptions of the "old mass," here's another view. I'm blessed to be able to attend an indult Latin Mass right now, in 2007. Please note that the characterizations of the 1950s do not apply at all to my experience of the Latin Mass, since the 1950s came before my time.

MUSIC:

Before September 11, 2001, we alternated between a High Mass and a Low Mass. The Sunday after 9/11, the pastor at the homily cried out, "What was I thinking? From now on, Every Sunday will be a High Mass!"

HOMILY:

The Homily tends to be satisfyingly intellectually stimulating. We even received a homily in which it was suggested that we need to be more humble. (When's the last time you heard humility as regards your own personal life brought up in a homily?) We were also encouraged that, although it was several weeks before Lent, we practice one penance of our choosing for one week.

SILENCE:

The silence before Mass is broken only by the recitation of the Rosary ... both the silence and the Rosary are greatly appreciated. For the record, I have never observed anyone praying the Rosary while the Mass was going on, but only before Mass started.

The interior silence during Latin Mass is so beautiful that it can barely be described. The Presence of the Trinity enriches even the oxygen in the air so that you can better sense you are in a holy place. While the radiance of the Holy Spirit can also be experienced in a Novus Ordo Mass, for me personally, the Latin Mass seems more conducive to bringing closer the Presence of God.

LACK OF TRADITIONALLY CELEBRATED NOVUS ORDOs IN YOUR AREA?

Does "traditionally celebrated Novus Ordo" have a particular meaning above and beyond a NO ("NO" = "Novus Ordo", that is Mass in the vernacular, in my case English) celebrated with fitting reverence for Our Eucharistic Lord? In any case, I am currently a member of an English-language NO parish, meanwhile attending the Latin Mass sometimes.

RAISED IN TLM AND STILL GRAVITATE THAT WAY?

No, I was raised with the English-language Mass. However, I've always loved the richness of tradition in the Catholic Church, and I've also loved different languages as well.

WHAT ABOUT THE CULTURE WITHIN YOUR TLM COMMUNITIES?

Am not a parishioner of the TLM parish, but from my observations, the TLM (indult Latin Mass) community seems to share my conservatism = faithful to the Pope and all Catholic doctrines, except for one TAN booklet which seemed a bit off that I was given by one consistent attendee of the Latin Mass. The TLM community, being smaller, strikes me as more courteous and perhaps even friendlier than many Novus Ordo parishes I've been to. (UPDATE/EDIT: My current Novus Ordo parish is wonderfully courteous.) For this reason I would love to join the TLM parish. However based on the distance from where I live, I decided not to take the plunge.

WERE YOU BORN AND RAISED PRE OR POST VATICAN II?

Born right around Vatican II ... Who knows, as a baby I may have been taken to the pre-Vatican II Latin Mass, but if so I have no memory of it.

AGE DEMOGRAPHICS:

All ages are represented at the Latin Mass I attend, from families with young kids including little girls wearing white chapel veils on up through our respected seasoned citizens.

ALTAR BOYS:

All are male. All ages are represented from boys to young adults to older men, and they like to have plenty of altar boys per Mass, say, around six.

PAX ET BONUM,

~~ the phoenix

[Holy Roller]

Originally Posted by the phoenix

Since we're sharing our actual perceptions of the "old mass," here's another view. I'm blessed to be able to attend an indult Latin Mass right now, in 2007. Please note that the characterizations of the 1950s do not apply at all to my experience of the Latin Mass, since the 1950s came before my time.

Okay, you have the advantage of attending a recent Latin mass. Up until recently when the Pope invited us Protestants back, I thought that I was excommunicated for living the care free life of a Protestant for 20 years. Seeing how I left the Church to be a Protestant, I thought that I would be crashing the party if I set foot inside. I take my mother-in-law to a Catholic Church every Sunday night, and before the Pope’s invitation I would sit outside in the car. Now, I’m back inside the church.

I found out that Protestants can receive communion in a Catholic Church if they don’t have the option of receiving communion in a Protestant church. Well, on Sunday morning while my family attends a Protestant church I care for my 85 year old mother, so I guess I’m free to participate in the Eucharist on Sunday night with my mother-in-law? With the Bishop’s approval, of course.

It seems strange for a Bible Believing Born Again Evangelical type like myself to eligible for the Eucharist. What do you think?

Out here in California the only Tridentine Mass that I know of is down in Huntington Beach at Saint Mary’s by the Sea. Check out the beauty of the picture.

http://romancatholicblog.typepad.com...ood-news-.html

Here is the unofficial page for Saint Mary’s by the Sea, the pictures load slow:

http://home.earthlink.net/~piobair/

Another thing that seems strange is that the site where I get my Gregorian Chants for each week’s Sunday Mass is also an unofficial site. That poor soul records the Saint Benedict Monks himself and posts MP3 Chants free on the Internet. Is this an underground church?


Richard

[Philothea53]

Originally Posted by Holy Roller

Well, I sorry that you are taking the ignorance in the Catholic personally. You mentioned the California wine country, and while in Napa this week we seen a very large mural on the town hall that covered the side of the building. The largest figure was our lady of Guadalupe in bright colors and there were also what appeared to be Aztec icons towards the bottom. We didn’t see a cross or anything that resembled Jesus. Now mind you, I’m not knocking the Catholics, but it appears that our neighbors to the south have brought some of their culture up here with them. A similar situation as when the displaced people of Europe migrated to this country. For the life of me, I can’t see why you are taking it to heart? Maybe, you should talk to a priest during confession about it, and not rip me apart here on the forum?

Richard

Our Lady of Guadalupe is Patroness of the Americas and also Protectress of the Unborn. She has a legitimate place right here in the United States. She is universal.

I believe you are being maybe just a slight bit racist? Our former pope was from Poland, our current from Bavaria? and they reside in Italy. Our Lady of Fatima appeared in Portugal. Our Lady of Lourdes in France.

[Philothea53]

Originally Posted by Holy Roller

Another thing that seems strange is that the site where I get my Gregorian Chants for each week’s Sunday Mass is also an unofficial site. That poor soul records the Saint Benedict Monks himself and posts MP3 Chants free on the Internet. Is this an underground church?


Richard

Come on, an underground church? Every website has to have official backing? You mean there can't be any websites about politics unless they have direct sponsorship of the Democrat or Republican parties? No cooking websites unless sanctioned by Wolfgang Puck?

You didn't think that question through, I am sure.

On the other hand, would you PLEASE, PRETTY PLEASE, post the link to where you get the Gregorian chants? I have been looking for such a site.

[Holy Roller]

Originally Posted by Philothea53

Come on, an underground church? Every website has to have official backing? You mean there can't be any websites about politics unless they have direct sponsorship of the Democrat or Republican parties? No cooking websites unless sanctioned by Wolfgang Puck?

You didn't think that question through, I am sure.

On the other hand, would you PLEASE, PRETTY PLEASE, post the link to where you get the Gregorian chants? I have been looking for such a site.

Underground church or not, it still seems strange to me that all this Latin stuff must transpire over the Internet through clandestine sites. Here is the link.

http://198.62.75.1/www2/cantgreg/index_eng.html

This page branches off to many other interesting (in Latin) Clandestinus sites as well as more calendars of Tridentine masses. In return I would appreciate the English translations of the weekly Gregorian Chants if you find them on the Internet.

Richard

[ASimpleSinner]

Originally Posted by Holy Roller

Underground church or not, it still seems strange to me that all this Latin stuff must transpire over the Internet through clandestine sites.

How is this clandestine? It is a publicly available website on the world wide web. The choice of the word implies that it is some mysterious group trying to function secretly so as, well, not to be caught for doing something they are not allowed?

How is it to be inferred or understood that this website exists because it "must transpire over the internet"? Just because individuals opt to provide this service only means, well, that individuals are providing this service. Not that they are doing anything underground.

Would you describe this website in the same fashion? It is not run by any organ of the hierarchy - it is run by the laity who do so voluntarily on their own.

[the phoenix]

Originally Posted by Holy Roller

I found out that Protestants can receive communion in a Catholic Church if they don’t have the option of receiving communion in a Protestant church. Well, on Sunday morning while my family attends a Protestant church I care for my 85 year old mother, so I guess I’m free to participate in the Eucharist on Sunday night with my mother-in-law? With the Bishop’s approval, of course.

It seems strange for a Bible Believing Born Again Evangelical type like myself to eligible for the Eucharist. What do you think?

I think you're trying to change the subject.

~~ the phoenix

[ASimpleSinner]

Originally Posted by Holy Roller

Okay, you have the advantage of attending a recent Latin mass. Up until recently when the Pope invited us Protestants back, I thought that I was excommunicated for living the care free life of a Protestant for 20 years. Seeing how I left the Church to be a Protestant, I thought that I would be crashing the party if I set foot inside. I take my mother-in-law to a Catholic Church every Sunday night, and before the Pope’s invitation I would sit outside in the car. Now, I’m back inside the church.

You keep saying "recently when the Pope invited us Protestants back"... I am not sure what you are referrring to or what you mean. Firstly the popes have always inplored return to full communion (membership) with the Catholic Church and secondly, B16 recently released "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church," Take a look at the document. It makes rather clear that what the Church taught before his pontificate, it still does today. So I am not sure what recent development you are speaking of.

Folks who do seperate themselves willingly and decidedly from the Catholic Church through rejection of the teachings of the Catholic Church and participation in Protestant ecclesial communities as members are, in fact, excommunicated latæ sententiæ. "Excommunication" does seem to get bandied about with some wild abandon in these forums... But it very simply means "out of communion" which in fact, someone who has opted to live "the care free life of a Protestant for 20 years" has chosen.

Far from being some grand and dramatic sentence being handed down by an ecclesial court and proclaimed from the pulpits, excommunication latæ sententiæ is a simpe and automatic thing.

Originally Posted by Holy Roller

I found out that Protestants can receive communion in a Catholic Church if they don’t have the option of receiving communion in a Protestant church. Well, on Sunday morning while my family attends a Protestant church I care for my 85 year old mother, so I guess I’m free to participate in the Eucharist on Sunday night with my mother-in-law? With the Bishop’s approval, of course.

The short answer? No.

Even for a practicing Catholic, to receive communion at a Catholic Church they must be properly prepared, and offer full assent to the teachings of the Church in in general and the nature of the Eucharist in particular.

Further, non-Catholics can only be admitted to communion if they are prepared, share the faith in the nature of the Eucharist and cannot

Originally Posted by Holy Roller

It seems strange for a Bible Believing Born Again Evangelical type like myself to eligible for the Eucharist. What do you think?

It isn't just strange, it is in fact not permitted.

The bad news is that in this matter you have incurred excommunication latæ sententiæ and cannot, under Church law and teaching, partake in the Eucharist.

The good news is, with a simple confession, you may easily come back home to the Catholic Church and share in communion with us.

[Holy Roller]

Originally Posted by ASimpleSinner

You keep saying "recently when the Pope invited us Protestants back"...

I’m not going to sit here all day and type out a response to that. All I can say is that you, and a few others here on the forum, are not up to date with what Pope Benedict has implemented recently.

View the Gregorian Chant page that I gave Susan and notice that there is no name or organization clearly visible. When I clicked on different links of that page I found the company who donated the URL for the use of the MP3 chants. The English language portion of that entire site has a clandestine appearance to me.

Whoever they are, they are poor saints in my book.



Richard

[ASimpleSinner]

Originally Posted by Holy Roller

I’m not going to sit here all day and type out a response to that. All I can say is that you, and a few others here on the forum, are not up to date with what Pope Benedict has implemented recently.

And that is fine. It is your perogative to not respond point for point.

But if you persist in pointing to "what Pope Benedict has implemented recently" could you at least give us reference to what you are talking about?

If you are willing to assert I am not up to date with some major change Pope Benedict supposedly taught, please cite the teaching.

[Philothea53]

Originally Posted by Holy Roller

Underground church or not, it still seems strange to me that all this Latin stuff must transpire over the Internet through clandestine sites. Here is the link.

http://198.62.75.1/www2/cantgreg/index_eng.html

This page branches off to many other interesting (in Latin) Clandestinus sites as well as more calendars of Tridentine masses. In return I would appreciate the English translations of the weekly Gregorian Chants if you find them on the Internet.

Richard

they are on the Internet for goodness sakes! I would hardly call that clandestine. You found them, after all, must not have been too hard

Yes I will share them with you if I find them.

[Holy Roller]

Originally Posted by ASimpleSinner

And that is fine. It is your perogative to not respond point for point.

But if you persist in pointing to "what Pope Benedict has implemented recently" could you at least give us reference to what you are talking about?

If you are willing to assert I am not up to date with some major change Pope Benedict supposedly taught, please cite the teaching.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to sound rude. However, that topic belongs on the other side of the forum, and discussed with someone like yourself who has the Church Law Books and knows the legal aspects of the corporate church. If you disagree with having mouthy Protestants invading your space, then concentrate on the “with reservations” portion of Pope Benedict’s decree.

In my opinion, Pope Benedict was well aware of (Matthew 23:9) “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”

As I remember it, I used to start my Catholic Confession with, “forgive me father for I have sinned”. The Pope surely wouldn’t expect a Protestant to say that phrase as a condition of accepting his invitation to fellowship and attend mass with the laypeople.

There are plenty of other verses, but I don’t think that it’s Christian to beat up someone with Bible verses.

Richard

[Holy Roller]

Originally Posted by the phoenix

BRING IT ON !!!



~~ the phoenix

Our Lady Help of Christians in Garden Grove, California is presently offering the Tridentine Mass. The beautiful picture of the quaint alter is the way I remember it back when I was a teenager during the 50’s. Don’t expect something elaborate like a cathedral. Here is the link:

http://www.olhc.us/

Richard

[the phoenix]

Originally Posted by Holy Roller

Our Lady Help of Christians in Garden Grove, California is presently offering the Tridentine Mass. The beautiful picture of the quaint alter is the way I remember it back when I was a teenager during the 50’s. Don’t expect something elaborate like a cathedral. Here is the link:

http://www.olhc.us/

Richard

Thank you for this link, as well as the one for Saint Mary’s by the Sea. Both very nice! (I didn't check out the slow-loading one though.)

~~ the phoenix

[Holy Roller]

Originally Posted by the phoenix

Thank you for this link, as well as the one for Saint Mary’s by the Sea. Both very nice! (I didn't check out the slow-loading one though.)

~~ the phoenix

The Tridentine Mass, as I remember it, had conservative stipulations for the laypeople that were very similar to Our Lady Help of Christians in Garden Grove, California. I cut and pasted them below as a warning to all who plan to attend:

Modesty in Church
Out of respect for Our Lord, we beg all to appear in church modestly dressed. No shorts allowed. Ladies, heads must be covered; skirts must cover the knee; no slacks or pants, low cut or sleeveless tops. Your cooperation is evidence of your love for Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament and the House of God.


Communion Fast
Holy Communion may be received only by Catholics believing themselves to be in the state of Sanctifying Grace, who are observing at least one hour fast prior to reception of the Sacrament. We are urged, however, to observe the fast from midnight, or at least 3 hours. While always welcome non-Catholics and those who do not accept the traditional teachings of the Church in matters of faith and morals, are NOT to receive Communion at this Mass.


Kneeling after Communion
Please remain kneeling until the chalices and the priest's fingers have been purified (ablutions).