Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Sacred Scripture
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Aug 2, '07, 7:56 am
Enter Enter is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: July 4, 2007
Posts: 21
Religion: Christian
Default Jesus said:” Offer the wicked man no resistance.”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”
How then can the Church approve of any war? There is no such thing as a just war.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Aug 2, '07, 8:53 am
djrakowski djrakowski is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2004
Posts: 3,185
Religion: Christian Catholic since 9/9/06
Send a message via AIM to djrakowski
Default Re: Jesus said:” Offer the wicked man no resistance.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enter View Post
(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”
How then can the Church approve of any war? There is no such thing as a just war.
What then of all the wars commanded by God in sacred scripture?
__________________
"Lord, teach me to know you so that I could love you." - Fr. Valerian Rykowski, 11/12/1916-3/1/2009
Interested in converting to Catholicism? Visit the Tiber Swim Team Lifeguard Station!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Aug 2, '07, 9:00 am
FightingFat's Avatar
FightingFat FightingFat is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2004
Posts: 5,115
Religion: Catholic
Send a message via MSN to FightingFat
Default Re: Jesus said:” Offer the wicked man no resistance.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by djrakowski View Post
What then of all the wars commanded by God in sacred scripture?
What of them? JP II said that "social justice can never be attained through violence, violence only ever destroys what it intends to create". Fairly conclusive evidence that war is always a failure for humanity don't you think?

CCC 2309 states:

The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
- there must be serious prospects of success;
- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.
The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

2307 & 8 State:


2307 The fifth commandment forbids the intentional destruction of human life. Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.105

2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war. However, "as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed."106
__________________
Roma locuta est, causa finita est
Domine Iesu Christe, Fili Dei, miserere mei, peccatoris.
~ Ubi caritas et amor deus ibi est.~
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi
http://marklambert.blogspot.co.uk/
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Aug 2, '07, 9:23 am
Enter Enter is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: July 4, 2007
Posts: 21
Religion: Christian
Default Re: Jesus said:” Offer the wicked man no resistance.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by djrakowski View Post
What then of all the wars commanded by God in sacred scripture?
Jesus is God and he was speaking for the Father. Jesus came here to complete the Law. Notice he said: (Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” Jesus made new rules, but it seems many of his followers are not up to obeying the new rules.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Aug 2, '07, 9:25 am
Melchior Melchior is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2004
Posts: 1,619
Religion: Catholic (revert)
Default Re: Jesus said:” Offer the wicked man no resistance.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enter View Post
(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”
How then can the Church approve of any war? There is no such thing as a just war.
He is talking about persecution for the gospel, not in every matter under the sun.

Quote:
There is no such thing as a just war
Tell that to the millions of holocaust victims under the Nazi's or the 100 million communism killed in the 20th century. Defending the innocent is always just.

Mel
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Aug 2, '07, 9:29 am
thechrismyster thechrismyster is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2004
Posts: 2,139
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Jesus said:” Offer the wicked man no resistance.”

war and superior firepower in whatever form has solved and will continue to solve most human conflicts that arise.

from hannibal's calvary to hiroshima - its brute force that breaks wills. the only thing that kept the cold war from exploding was the thread of mutually assured destruction... not happy thoughts and lollipops.

The good people will always be charged with destroying the unjust aggressor. even in heaven, the angels drove satan out with a WAR. from the beginning there was war. and until the end there will continue to be war.
__________________
hi
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Aug 2, '07, 9:33 am
Enter Enter is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: July 4, 2007
Posts: 21
Religion: Christian
Default Re: Jesus said:” Offer the wicked man no resistance.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by FightingFat View Post
What of them? JP II said that "social justice can never be attained through violence, violence only ever destroys what it intends to create". Fairly conclusive evidence that war is always a failure for humanity don't you think?

CCC 2309 states:

The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
- there must be serious prospects of success;
- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.
The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

2307 & 8 State:


2307 The fifth commandment forbids the intentional destruction of human life. Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.105

2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war. However, "as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed."106
[color="RoyalBlue"]That is right the state has the right to wage war. The state is part of the world, but a Christian isn’t part of the world, so has no right [/COLOR]to be part of the world.

(John 15:18-19) “If the world hates you, remember that it hated me before you. If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you do not belong to the world because my choice withdrew you from the world.”

You should see the world needs laws and enforcers of the law to protect it from the wicked.

Christians don’t need law. Christians are not part of the world. The lord of the world is Satan. Jesus is a Christian’s Lord and he obeys his Word.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Aug 2, '07, 9:53 am
djrakowski djrakowski is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2004
Posts: 3,185
Religion: Christian Catholic since 9/9/06
Send a message via AIM to djrakowski
Default Re: Jesus said:” Offer the wicked man no resistance.”

Yes, FightingFat, we are to work for the avoidance of war. It doesn't say there's no such thing as a just war, though.

And, my question was more narrowly-worded than that. I'm interested in finding out if there are no just wars, whether those commanded by God weren't just.
__________________
"Lord, teach me to know you so that I could love you." - Fr. Valerian Rykowski, 11/12/1916-3/1/2009
Interested in converting to Catholicism? Visit the Tiber Swim Team Lifeguard Station!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Aug 2, '07, 9:56 am
djrakowski djrakowski is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2004
Posts: 3,185
Religion: Christian Catholic since 9/9/06
Send a message via AIM to djrakowski
Default Re: Jesus said:” Offer the wicked man no resistance.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enter View Post
Christians don’t need law. Christians are not part of the world. The lord of the world is Satan. Jesus is a Christian’s Lord and he obeys his Word.
How do you propose we separate ourselves from the world that requires governance by laws, and what would you do with the following scripture:

Romans 13:1 (NIV) - Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

That doesn't have an out clause for Christians
__________________
"Lord, teach me to know you so that I could love you." - Fr. Valerian Rykowski, 11/12/1916-3/1/2009
Interested in converting to Catholicism? Visit the Tiber Swim Team Lifeguard Station!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Aug 2, '07, 10:42 am
NaturalEnquirer NaturalEnquirer is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2007
Posts: 637
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Jesus said:” Offer the wicked man no resistance.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melchior View Post
He is talking about persecution for the gospel, not in every matter under the sun.
What makes you think so? It's not obvious from the passage.

Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old Aug 2, '07, 11:39 am
Scottgun's Avatar
Scottgun Scottgun is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 14, 2006
Posts: 2,182
Religion: Catholic Theocratic Imperialist
Default Re: Jesus said:” Offer the wicked man no resistance.”

Attempts to prooftext just war away fall flat. See:


Pacifism vs. "Just War": Biblical & Social Factors


Dialogue on Christian Pacifism and "Just War": Biblical and Social Factors (vs. Dr. EL Hamilton)


Scott
__________________
Ēadiġ biđ se wer ţe ne gǣđ on ġeţeaht unrihtwīsra
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old Aug 2, '07, 3:02 pm
Jesusstreet Jesusstreet is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2007
Posts: 119
Default Re: Jesus said:” Offer the wicked man no resistance.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enter View Post
(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”
How then can the Church approve of any war? There is no such thing as a just war.
First let us examine the Scripture which you justify this. Because i would see the Bible as a single coherent work, and don't like it when people justify morality by taking a verse out of context. (The Bible must be read in the context, in the light of, Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture, and historical cultural period).

Here is the entire context of that particular discourse within Matthew, within the Bible as it was spoken 2000 years ago, but we are not here interpreting it yet in the light of sacred tradition. . .

Matthew 5:38 *You have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.
39 *But I say to you not to resist evil: but if one strike thee on thy right cheek, turn to him also the other:
40 *And if a man will contend with thee in judgment, and take away thy coat, let go thy cloak also unto him.
41 *And whosoever will force thee one mile, go with him other two,
42 *Give to him that asketh of thee and from him that would borrow of thee turn not away.

With this context we see that Saint Matthew the Apostle is saying let them be wicked, but don't be wicked, let bygones be bygones, but don't make it your sin by attacking them. But let it be their sin, and forgive them for it. This is for the sake of your own sin.

I think a more revelant quote pertaining to war is this:

Revelation 13:10 *He that shall lead into captivity, shall go into captivity: he that shall kill by the sword, must be killed by the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Further there is a conjuctive verse (keep this one Rev. 13:10 in mind and read this one and keep it in mind a moment)

Matthew 13:45 *Again the kingdom of heaven is like to a merchant seeking good pearls.
46 *Who when he had found one pearl of great price, went his way, and sold all that he had, and bought it.

the key, i believe to rev. 13:10 is that "the saints" do not kill lest they be killed, this is do unto others as you'd have done unto you. We see that those who would overcome and be Saints from Matthew 13:45-46 that we should in this give up the things and treasures of this world to pursue Sainthood. Why then would you fight for this world if your treasures were in HEAVEN and not here?

Now saying that we see Saints have been warriors. Very few of them warriors of the flesh, most of them have been warriors of the SPIRIT who seek to conquer the territory of the heart, to overcome and recieve THE PROMISED LAND which is HEAVEN. Now we do see some have families, and things of this world, and that is why they fight. That is a good vocation though, and one which GOD has given them. We are required to do these things in CHRIST, and sooner or later the harvest will come. That is the status quo won't continue forever, but in HEAVEN they do not marry. The fruits of marriage being children, and these children will be the Saints of GOD, those who do the will of GOD THE FATHER. Let the chaff grow among the wheat until the day of harvest.

My point is, some are called out of this world to serve CHRIST, in fact we are all called to be great Saints. For the time being in this world people marry and have children, but we must also see in the call to be Saints we must serve one another, and pray for one another, that we all may go to HEAVEN.

The kind of warrior a person is depends on where their treasures are. The person who has put their treasures in HEAVEN fight for salvation of the soul. The person who has their treasures on Earth fight to protect their family and children.

We do see however this excuse for war, the protection of freedom and this world for raising families, won't be a good excuse when they murder their own children, as in abortion. This was in the past nuclear deterent nobody would blow themselves up because they LOVED their children. But now, they abort them, saying they don't want to have children, but why then the cry to protect them? There is clearly the righteous and the unrighteous in this SPIRITual war, and 50,000,000 aborted babies witness against those who ar protecting their wealth in this world. This leads me to conclude there will soon be nuclear war.

We must see that we should all honor the call to be Saints, keep the commandments, purge the world, and put our treasures in HEAVEN, for surely JESUS comes quickly.

LOVE your neighbor as yourself.
Amen.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old Aug 3, '07, 8:04 am
Graing Graing is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 5, 2007
Posts: 127
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Jesus said:” Offer the wicked man no resistance.”

If you have two cloaks, sell one and buy a sword.

Jesus was not a pacifist. Some cherry-pick scripture for selfish political / social reasons.

If there were no just war doctrine, and if we offered no resistance. Christianity and Judaism would have ceased long long ago. You would have to go back many many many generations to even hear of an old legendary figure named Jesus Christ. We would pray five times a day to Mecca, or not know what prayer even is (socialism) and no where in the world would the Word of Christ be read, spoken, or preached.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Aug 3, '07, 8:34 am
Melchior Melchior is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2004
Posts: 1,619
Religion: Catholic (revert)
Default Re: Jesus said:” Offer the wicked man no resistance.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by NaturalEnquirer View Post
What makes you think so? It's not obvious from the passage.

Thanks!
Good point. The whole context is the sermon on the mount which is gospel oriented, and He is talking about being salt and light prior to the section mentioned. So I think it is a fair assumption from the context of Matthew 5, if not explicitly stated, it is about the personal implications of the gospel. However, I will correct myself by admitting I missed the bigger point of the immediate context, which is about interpersonal (one on one) behavior when the individual Christian is wronged and how we are to react in certain circumstances. Which still shows that the OP misunderstands Jesus' point. He is not talking about nations etc. He is talking about the individual believer.

In fact for the OP to be consistent he would have to be against the police.

Mel
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old Aug 3, '07, 11:33 am
Enter Enter is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: July 4, 2007
Posts: 21
Religion: Christian
Default Re: Jesus said:” Offer the wicked man no resistance.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graing View Post
If you have two cloaks, sell one and buy a sword.

Jesus was not a pacifist. Some cherry-pick scripture for selfish political / social reasons.

If there were no just war doctrine, and if we offered no resistance. Christianity and Judaism would have ceased long long ago. You would have to go back many many many generations to even hear of an old legendary figure named Jesus Christ. We would pray five times a day to Mecca, or not know what prayer even is (socialism) and no where in the world would the Word of Christ be read, spoken, or preached.
Remember the Lord’s Prayer? Our Father in heaven hallowed be they name, they kingdom come, they will be done. I God wants us to live we will live. No matter what you do when he wants you to die you will die.

Jesus told us to love our enemies. Now to love Jesus is to do what he told us to do. If someone wants to defend themselves or others by hurting the attacker, then who is it that he or she loves
more?

(Matthew 10:37-39) “Anyone who prefers father or mother to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who prefers son or daughter to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who does not take his cross and follow in my footsteps is not worthy of me. Anyone who finds his life will lose it; anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it.”
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Sacred Scripture

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8240Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: GLam8833
4997CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: James_OPL
4342Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: James_OPL
4029OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: B79
3830SOLITUDE
Last by: beth40n2
3550Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3217Poems and Reflections
Last by: tonyg
3203Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: memphian
3100Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3043For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: Thomas Choe



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 2:19 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2013, Catholic Answers.