will the reality live up to expectations?

[puzzleannie]

I am concerned and somewhat dismayed at the high expectations among proponents of TLM, including those who regularly pm'ed me to discuss advent of MP. My concern is this, to many of us the Tridentine Mass represents more than a rite, but an entire "Catholic culture" that I fear is gone for good, and may never truly be restored.

We are talking about more than the rite for Mass. We are talking about the universal support for Catholic schools where children learned Latin, how to use a missal, how to behave, authentic doctrine on Eucharist and the Mass. We are talking about strong (often large) Catholic families where children were taught from babyhood how to behave, how to dress, how to move, sit, stand, kneel, genuflect, pray, by parents who made daily enormous sacrifices to accept God's will for their family, and where being Catholic happened at home, at school, at work, and in the marketplace, not just at Mass.

We are talking about a culture where to have your child become a priest or nun was the highest joy a parent could have on this earth. We are talking about a culture where values at church, school and home were the same, and an interwoven support network for raising Catholic children--and where values of the larger culture were similar, for the most part. We are talking about a culture where priests were formed primarily through spiritual exercises and disciplines, rather than through the mish-mash of wonky psycho-babble and narcissistic academia that characterized too many seminaries over the last few decdes.

I also have a sense, as a survivor, that the damage done to older Catholics--lay, priestly and religious--by not so much the "changes" as by the way they were implemented (violently, without catechesis, without charity) in many times and places, is too great to be so easily resolved by saying:
okay, you whiners, have your old Mass back and be happy with it.

In short, I fear that merely giving permission for TLM to be celebrated wherever a significant (undefined) number of people express an interest is not going to restore some glorious golden age that many supporters are nostalgic for and have been hoping for.

[MariaGorettiGrl]

I would more attribute the loss of all the things you mentioned to the culture rather than the Church. The fact is that the baby-boomers in general did not actually raise their children. Their idea of a babysitter was dropping their children off at the mall with twenty bucks. And while it would be nice to have all the wide-spread Catholic schools that we used to, that's no replacement for parents. When parents just don't care or understand enough to instill a strong faith in their children, it is most damaging. The severe lack of morality in our culture is the results of parents who said "Just go live your life; I won't tell you what to do."

okay, you whiners, have your old Mass back and be happy with it.

This seems like an overly negative comment. Pope Benedict XVI has spoken of the beauty of the Latin Mass and issued the MP not to shut up the whiners, but to remind people that there are benefits to the old Mass as well as the new.

As for the "glorious golden age", all I have to say is the grass is always greener on the other side. There were plenty of problems in their time as well. The problems we had in the 60's and 70's were not due to the change in the Mass. It was the baby boomers finally reaching young adulthood and having the chance to "express themselves". Despite the fact that they were raised on the Latin Mass and had a Catholic education, as soon as they were able they started drugs, free-love, the pill, etc.

We can look back on it now and say, "Those were the good old days" because we're not living it. If we were, we'd be saying, "Now the 20's, those were the good old days!" The devil has attacked the faithful since the beginning of time. Every age faces their special problems as the devil tries all his tricks. It's our job to face them as they come.

[BlyssfulDreamer]

My concern is that with the availability of the TLM to people who have not made it a part of their lives and their heart that we will start to see the same things happen at the TLM that we see every Sunday at the NO. Women coming in shorts....backless dresses...flip-flops....men coming with the names of their favorite sports teams on their T-shirts and a general watering down of the respect now seen in the TLM. People coming who do not make an attempt to genufelct or make a profound bow... ...and just total disregard for what the Mass is all about. I see it every Saturday night at my NO vigil Mass and then when I go to Sunday morning TLM...it is the difference between night and day. The behavior of the children is totally different too. Are my concerns unfounded? Will those who decide and make a conscious decision to go to the TLM have the reverence?

♥Blyss

[Holy Roller]

Originally Posted by BlyssfulDreamer

My concern is that with the availability of the TLM to people who have not made it a part of their lives and their heart that we will start to see the same things happen at the TLM that we see every Sunday at the NO. Women coming in shorts....backless dresses...flip-flops....men coming with the names of their favorite sports teams on their T-shirts and a general watering down of the respect now seen in the TLM. People coming who do not make an attempt to genufelct or make a profound bow... ...and just total disregard for what the Mass is all about. I see it every Saturday night at my NO vigil Mass and then when I go to Sunday morning TLM...it is the difference between night and day. The behavior of the children is totally different too. Are my concerns unfounded? Will those who decide and make a conscious decision to go to the TLM have the reverence?

♥Blyss

You brought up a good point. Obviously, the people in my age group, the ones who lived through both the positive and negative during the swing towards liberalism, will try to see only the positive. Lets face it, the halter has been off for a long time, especially for the women. Before we put our foot down, lets make sure that we don’t end up living in the back seat of our car. My Filipino wife is young enough to be my daughter and usually wares a sexy skirt slightly above her knee, as do many of our Hispanic Catholics. I can’t imagine her wearing a long dress below her knee.

Richard

[rlg94086]

First of all...was it really the golden age? Before you throw things at me, I don't mean that it wasn't good, just that it wasn't perfect. I didn't experience it, but I know when people talk about living conditions, and other non-religious subjects, during other eras the "golden age" is often hyperbole.

Perhaps things are correcting themselves slowly from 40 years in Kumbaya-land (a very festive desert...lotsa love ). I'm prayerful and hopeful that we will finally emerge a better, more reverent Church. If some of what the "orthodox" post-VII movement (e.g. Scott Hahn) merges with the TLM, then we may have something even better than "the golden age."

I hope that people come to realize that they can have their charismatic prayer meetings (though that's not my "thing"), teen prayer meetings, bible study groups (in-home or at Church), as long as they follow the teachings of the Magisterium and come to Mass (a reverent Mass...hopefully the TLM) on Sunday.

Now, I know some of you are sceptical. All I'm saying is "let's pray for the best!"

Your eternal optimist,

Robert

[catechumen08]

Hi puzzleannie, I'm of the opinion that it's better to have the Latin Mass than not. Personally, I'm very excited about it, and I sincerely hope that our archdiocese will start offering it soon. Yes, it's something "new", well, at least to us younger people, but I like it because it's based on centuries of tradition. It's a big and serious production that needs to be prepared, learned, choreographed, etc., which is the way that I prefer it. Granted, there's probably less interaction between the priests and parishioners, but I think it more than makes up for that in other respects.

I've also read that there's a lot of interest among the younger crowd regarding the TLM. I think that's a very good thing. If the bringing back of the Tridentine Mass gets more young people interested, then it's definitely a good thing!

As for your concerns, I can understand where you're coming from, but I think bringing back the TLM will do more good than cause concerns. Mass is Mass, whether it's in the local vernacular or in its Latin form. Appropriate dress and decorum shouldn't really vary, well, there're a few differences, but the general expectations are fairly similar. It can't hurt to have more options.

Now I just wish I could find a local church that has it! I think one cathedral in our archdiocese had it, but then they stopped doing it. I hope they'll bring it back soon.

Anyway, just my $0.02.

[mtr01]

The way I see it, if the Church is to return, not necessarily to any "golden age", but at least to a point where Catholics (as a whole) know and live their faith as described in the OP, we have to at least start somewhere. As others have mentioned in various threads, there seems to be a growing interest in the TLM among the younger generations. These same people also tend to hold more traditional values pertaining to education and living the faith. Further, those with such views are generating vocations at a higher rate than those more more modern (even secular views).

I don't think a transformation is going to happen overnight, but as with any journey, the first step must be taken. The MP, in my opinion, is that first step. We'll see where the journey goes from there.

[palmas85]

Originally Posted by puzzleannie

I am concerned and somewhat dismayed at the high expectations among proponents of TLM, including those who regularly pm'ed me to discuss advent of MP. My concern is this, to many of us the Tridentine Mass represents more than a rite, but an entire "Catholic culture" that I fear is gone for good, and may never truly be restored.

We are talking about more than the rite for Mass. We are talking about the universal support for Catholic schools where children learned Latin, how to use a missal, how to behave, authentic doctrine on Eucharist and the Mass. We are talking about strong (often large) Catholic families where children were taught from babyhood how to behave, how to dress, how to move, sit, stand, kneel, genuflect, pray, by parents who made daily enormous sacrifices to accept God's will for their family, and where being Catholic happened at home, at school, at work, and in the marketplace, not just at Mass.

We are talking about a culture where to have your child become a priest or nun was the highest joy a parent could have on this earth. We are talking about a culture where values at church, school and home were the same, and an interwoven support network for raising Catholic children--and where values of the larger culture were similar, for the most part. We are talking about a culture where priests were formed primarily through spiritual exercises and disciplines, rather than through the mish-mash of wonky psycho-babble and narcissistic academia that characterized too many seminaries over the last few decdes.

I also have a sense, as a survivor, that the damage done to older Catholics--lay, priestly and religious--by not so much the "changes" as by the way they were implemented (violently, without catechesis, without charity) in many times and places, is too great to be so easily resolved by saying:
okay, you whiners, have your old Mass back and be happy with it.

In short, I fear that merely giving permission for TLM to be celebrated wherever a significant (undefined) number of people express an interest is not going to restore some glorious golden age that many supporters are nostalgic for and have been hoping for.

I agree with in great part on this. However,

A journey of 1,000 miles begins with one step. This is the first real step. We'll just have to see where it goes. Many of us have felt for years that the decline in Catholic morality and culture can be attributed at least in part to the, how shall we say it, lack of reverence given to holy things in general and the Church in particular. When people saw their Priests, Sisters and Bishops scoffing at the traditions of the Church, many if not most of the laity reacted the same way, and with good reason, I might add. When Priests stopped saying the Breviary and entire orders of sisters stopped engaging in Eucharistic Adoration the laity had to have been affected. Even more so when they heard Mass and saw some of the more scandalous things that happened, and continue to occur.

The second big problem as I see it was the blending of worship patterns that did in fact occur after Vatican II. There is no doubt at all that the Traditional Mass was something that no self respecting Protestant would ever be caught dead at. It spoke way too much of things they considered blasphemous, the eternal, ongoing sacrifice, emphasis on the crucifixtion, transubstantiation not to mention the priestly class itself.

With the Pauline Rite these distinctions were blurred and in many cases, eliminated altogether, in the interest of inter religious dialogue and ecumenism. I'm not saying it was by nefarious design, but it did happen. Just two examples, how many Churches today don't display the Crucifix in the Sanctuary? Clear violation of the rubrics but it happens all the time. In fact, I have seen threads here where people complain about a crucifix being present in the Sanctuary because it distracts and bothers them. Interesting that almost no mainline protestant churches display a crucifix inside ther churches. Coincidence?

How many threads have we seen here about non Catholics receiving Holy Communion, with the full knowledge of the Priests and laity? And why not? To them, Communion is a memorial nothing more. they see nothing wrong with what they are doing and we are too, what charitable? to let them know. So in essence what we got was pretty much what mainstream protestants have. LOVE LOVE LOVE

Nothing to heavy, nothing too hard to take, nothing of any real substance, just LOVE

As I said it is the first step. Those of us who remained faithful to the Church as we knew it have seen our prayers answered. I don't believe for a second the Holy Father would have done what he did if he did not see a real good reason for it. He is way, way too smart for that. What happens now, is anyones guess, but it can't hurt and is a good start.

[BobP123]

I sincerely hope that our archdiocese will start offering it soon.

What's nice about the M.P. is that you don't need your archdiocese to start it. All you need is a priest.

[BobP123]

Mass is Mass, whether it's in the local vernacular or in its Latin form.

Well, not really. There are black Masses, which are actually valid, but I don't think you want to attend them. Others may still be damaging to your faith or not to your spiritual advantage. How it looks and feels is important.

[catechumen08]

Originally Posted by BobP123

Well, not really. There are black Masses, which are actually valid, but I don't think you want to attend them. Others may still be damaging to your faith or not to your spiritual advantage. How it looks and feels is important.

Black Masses are valid? You're kidding, right?

[BobP123]

Originally Posted by catechumen08

Black Masses are valid? You're kidding, right?

The Satanists wouldn't say them if they weren't. Think about it.

[Holy Roller]

Originally Posted by palmas85

How many threads have we seen here about non Catholics receiving Holy Communion, with the full knowledge of the Priests and laity? And why not? To them, Communion is a memorial nothing more. they see nothing wrong with what they are doing and we are too, what charitable? to let them know. So in essence what we got was pretty much what mainstream protestants have. LOVE LOVE LOVE

Nothing to heavy, nothing too hard to take, nothing of any real substance, just LOVE

You brought up a good point. The Catholic Church should have setup two separate communion lines years ago. One with grape juice for the Calvinists. From the narrow slit of being a Protestant, the Bible reading is great and the Priest preaches a good sermon. And of course, the stained glass windows during the evening mass are a sight to behold. Now, if we can meditate along with Gregorian Chants that would put the frosting on the cake. We Charismatics have the gift of being able to sing along with the Monks in our heavenly language. Whether or not that will be allow during mass, well, we will have to wait and see. In short, this is my expectation.

Richard

[palmas85]

Originally Posted by Holy Roller

You brought up a good point. The Catholic Church should have setup two separate communion lines years ago. One with grape juice for the Calvinists. From the narrow slit of being a Protestant, the Bible reading is great and the Priest preaches a good sermon. And of course, the stained glass windows during the evening mass are a sight to behold. Now, if we can meditate along with Gregorian Chants that would put the frosting on the cake. We Charismatics have the gift of being able to sing along with the Monks in our heavenly language. Whether or not that will be allow during mass, well, we will have to wait and see. In short, this is my expectation.

Richard

I have a better idea. Let the Calvinists drop their beliefs, return to the true Church and have one Communion line.

As far as charismatics go, my opinion remains unchanged despite years of attempts to influence me in another direction.

[Brenda V.]

Originally Posted by BobP123

Well, not really. There are black Masses, which are actually valid, but I don't think you want to attend them. Others may still be damaging to your faith or not to your spiritual advantage. How it looks and feels is important.

Originally Posted by catechumen08

Black Masses are valid? You're kidding, right?

I am going to ask for proof of this - I question the validity of a Black Mass - don't you have to have a Priest for a valid Mass? If a Satanist's Black Mass is valid why do we have to be on the look out for anyone trying to steal a consecrated host - the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ?

Sorry for the side tracking here but I just could not let that one go.

As for puzzleannies concerns I tend to agree with her. I do think though that there are enough TLMers (is that a word and is it allowed?) who know that there is no turning the clock back on the culture but who would like to be able to worship with the 1962 Missal. They are realistic and can accept that maybe all that will happen is the return of more TLMs with the hope that the other will follow .

Brenda V.