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  #1  
Old Aug 9, '07, 7:40 am
Conciliar Conciliar is offline
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Default Liberal Tolerance: An Oxymoron

As Friday approaches, the day this subforum will go away, I'm thinking about what have we learned here. One of the things we learned is that there is no one less tolerant than a liberal. (Generally speaking, of course. )

It seems that the majority of traditional minded people (and no, I am not counting those in schism) are hopeful about what the MP might bring, and they have their reasons to be excited. Sure, they see problems in the Ordinary Form, yet few are actively seeking to prevent those who favor the OF from having access to it.

The "liberal" folks by contrast (the Commonweal crowd, et al.) not only favor the Ordinary Form, they are deeply troubled by the prospect of wider availability of the Extraordinary Form, and some would like nothing better than to limit or prevent others from having acess to it.

This is nothing new, of course. Whether it's in a political setting or a religious one, there is no one less tolerant than a liberal.
  #2  
Old Aug 9, '07, 7:54 am
WanderAimlessly WanderAimlessly is offline
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Default Re: Liberal Tolerance: An Oxymoron

The same can be said of anyone who is on the fring whether it be on the right or left.

I have seen posts from some on the "traditionalist" side who constantly say that the Ordinary form of the Mass is invalid and a protestant invention.

I have also seen them call the Pope and Bishops like Bishop Bruskewitz heretics and not Catholic just because they stood up to them in the past.

Also, it has not happened on this forum, but I have seen threats of lawsuits from those on the "traditionalist" side just because someone posted information unfavorable to their positions.

Both side can act in an irrational manner. I am not against the Extraordinary form, I am just against those who would force it on others at the detriment of the Ordinary form.

BTW: I am against the Radical Progresssives just as much as the Radical Traditionalists
  #3  
Old Aug 9, '07, 8:03 am
Conciliar Conciliar is offline
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Default Re: Liberal Tolerance: An Oxymoron

Quote:
I have seen posts from some on the "traditionalist" side who constantly say that the Ordinary form of the Mass is invalid and a protestant invention.

I have also seen them call the Pope and Bishops like Bishop Bruskewitz heretics and not Catholic just because they stood up to them in the past.
No you haven't. People like you are exactly the reason I added the statement that I am not talking about schismatics.

Quote:
Both side can act in an irrational manner. I am not against the Extraordinary form, I am just against those who would force it on other at the detriment of the Ordinary form.
Force it on the other? The EF? LOL! I do believe you're serious, it's just hard to imagine.
  #4  
Old Aug 9, '07, 8:15 am
ncjohn ncjohn is offline
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Default Re: Liberal Tolerance: An Oxymoron

I don't know, Conciliar. I fall into neither "camp", preferring the Pauline Mass, but having hoped for wider availability for the TLM for those who prefer that.

Having watched this debate rage on now for the two years plus that I've been here, I think that as "intolerance" goes, it would probably lean the other way. I agree that many of the "liberals", as you call them, are concerned, but I think that much--maybe most--of that concern is because of the image many "traditionalists" have exuded (and I am not addressing schismatics) and the way they have been attacked for their own preference.

One of the "traditionalists" here, who I consider to be by and large very fair, put it very clearly that a large part of the "traditionalist" community is not the least bit interested in peaceful coexistence. They will not be happy until the have their foot on the neck of the Pauline Mass and are seeing its last gasp of breath.

In my experience, I have largely found that to be true. Those leaning toward "traditionalism", at least many of those who post here, seem fully convinced that the Pauline Mass is inherently inferior if not totally illicit (as evidenced by the many, many posts referencing Trent). The number of posts decrying anyone who prefers the Pauline Mass as undeducated, irreverent, ill-informed, etc, just boggles the mind.

Quite frankly, as strong a proponent as I have been for setting the TLM free, I have been very dismayed at the number of personal attacks I have been subjected to for the sole reason that I don't share the preference. And I have many friends, devoted to God and Church, who never gave this a second thought until "traditionalists", both online and in person, started poking them in the eye and telling them that we needed to go back to the "one right way" and that all this post Vatican II stuff is garbage. People who didn't care one way or another before are now totally turned off by the whole thing and wondering whether this is just really an attempt to take away the Mass that they love.

I don't think intolerance is confined at all to either side. And unfortunately, the more those most intolerant--at the fringes of both camps--continue to accuse each other of it, the more suspicious and cynical each becomes, and the more the problem feeds on itself.

I find it sad for the Church that this continues to go on. I can only pray that as those who have been denied the TLM for so long are able to worship as they wish, that they will be able to turn loose of the animosity, born of their frustration, and that we will be able to work together as the Body of Christ in this weary world. If that happens, I feel quite sure that those on the Pauline Mass side will be more than willing to just leave them alone, and might even be drawn to sample the experience themselves.

I continue to pray for peace for our Church,
__________________
John
Faithfully pursuing a journey of Peace as a Secular Franciscan

"I am a little pencil in the hand of a writing God who is sending a love letter to the world." Mother Teresa
  #5  
Old Aug 9, '07, 10:24 am
Holy Roller Holy Roller is offline
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Default Re: Liberal Tolerance: An Oxymoron

Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderAimlessly View Post
The same can be said of anyone who is on the fring whether it be on the right or left.

I have seen posts from some on the "traditionalist" side who constantly say that the Ordinary form of the Mass is invalid and a protestant invention.

I have also seen them call the Pope and Bishops like Bishop Bruskewitz heretics and not Catholic just because they stood up to them in the past.

Also, it has not happened on this forum, but I have seen threats of lawsuits from those on the "traditionalist" side just because someone posted information unfavorable to their positions.

Both side can act in an irrational manner. I am not against the Extraordinary form, I am just against those who would force it on others at the detriment of the Ordinary form.

BTW: I am against the Radical Progresssives just as much as the Radical Traditionalists
I have always said that the Catholic Church should have setup two separate communion lines years ago. One with grape juice for the Calvinists. My view from the narrow slit of being a Protestant is that the Calvinists gained a lot of ground in 1962, but the political pendulum always swings back and forth. There was a recent study that found out that the liberals donít get restful sleep at night when the conservatives are in power. I donít know if that applies to the conservatives when the liberals are in power? That theory is probably the propellant that sets the pendulum in motion and also the gravity that keeps it in motion. Assuming that itís all part of Godís creation, well, we will just have to learn to live with it. Besides being the corporate church, the Bishops are also Christians, so they will have a tendency to give. A good example is here in Oakland where we have a Tridentine Mass Monday through Friday at 6:00 PM. Thatís addition to the Saturday and Sunday Latin.

http://www.stmargmaryoak.org/default.htm

But of course, that brings us back to separate communion lines. Being a conservative myself, I can see a tendency for saying that all that transpired after a certain date around 1962 as being invalid and repentance required before reinstatement through the true Tridentine Church. In my opinion, one Mass with two separate communion lines, one with grape juice for the Calvinist would be more practical. The Calvinists have brought a lot of good things into the Mass. Lets all find new live in the Spirit as we round out this forum


Richard
  #6  
Old Aug 9, '07, 11:09 am
WanderAimlessly WanderAimlessly is offline
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Default Re: Liberal Tolerance: An Oxymoron

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Roller View Post
But of course, that brings us back to separate communion lines. Being a conservative myself, I can see a tendency for saying that all that transpired after a certain date around 1962 as being invalid and repentance required before reinstatement through the true Tridentine Church. In my opinion, one Mass with two separate communion lines, one with grape juice for the Calvinist would be more practical. The Calvinists have brought a lot of good things into the Mass. Lets all find new live in the Spirit as we round out this forum


Richard
I prefer not using "conservative" and "liberal" as general terms. I consider myself of the orthodox (small O) midset which rejects both radical ends of the spectrum.
  #7  
Old Aug 9, '07, 11:41 am
Holy Roller Holy Roller is offline
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Default Re: Liberal Tolerance: An Oxymoron

Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderAimlessly View Post
I prefer not using "conservative" and "liberal" as general terms. I consider myself of the orthodox (small O) midset which rejects both radical ends of the spectrum.
The disadvantage of standing in the middle is that you get hit twice by the pendulum. Once as it swings to the right and again when it swings back to the left. Charismatic Renew, on the other hand, draw us out of any competition and into a free act of faith and conversion.

Richard
  #8  
Old Aug 9, '07, 12:19 pm
WanderAimlessly WanderAimlessly is offline
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Default Re: Liberal Tolerance: An Oxymoron

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holy Roller View Post
The disadvantage of standing in the middle is that you get hit twice by the pendulum. Once as it swings to the right and again when it swings back to the left. Charismatic Renew, on the other hand, draw us out of any competition and into a free act of faith and conversion.

Richard
That is so true. That is why I have been going to Assumption Grotto here for the past month. I do not have to wear body armor there
  #9  
Old Aug 9, '07, 12:37 pm
BobP123 BobP123 is offline
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Default Re: Liberal Tolerance: An Oxymoron

Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderAimlessly View Post
Both side can act in an irrational manner. I am not against the Extraordinary form, I am just against those who would force it on others at the detriment of the Ordinary form.
The Ordinary Form isn't being scrapped like the TLM was in the sixties. Only one form with multiple vernaculars was allowed back then. There is no way the trads are on the same level playing field with the liberals, no matter how many similarities you can create. Extreme trads did not set up the rules of the game. Liberals want to change them.
  #10  
Old Aug 9, '07, 1:05 pm
ncjohn ncjohn is offline
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Default Re: Liberal Tolerance: An Oxymoron

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobP123 View Post
The Ordinary Form isn't being scrapped like the TLM was in the sixties. Only one form with multiple vernaculars was allowed back then. There is no way the trads are on the same level playing field with the liberals, no matter how many similarities you can create. Extreme trads did not set up the rules of the game. Liberals want to change them.
I guess the question now is whether we can live in peace, with both having the liturgies they want available to them.

Is having the TLM available enough? Or is there still a need to "get even" or something over whatever mistakes were made in the past?
__________________
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Faithfully pursuing a journey of Peace as a Secular Franciscan

"I am a little pencil in the hand of a writing God who is sending a love letter to the world." Mother Teresa
  #11  
Old Aug 9, '07, 3:26 pm
Conciliar Conciliar is offline
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Default Re: Liberal Tolerance: An Oxymoron

Quote:
Originally Posted by ncjohn View Post
I guess the question now is whether we can live in peace, with both having the liturgies they want available to them.

Is having the TLM available enough? Or is there still a need to "get even" or something over whatever mistakes were made in the past?
Rhetorical questions, I know... But back to my original point...

Mainstream liberal Catholic publications, like Commonweal; and many large metropolitan area newspapers have reacted to the MP with pieces that indicate that they apparently do not believe the availability of the TLM is "enough," rather they're on a quest to limit its availability. I'm not talking about left wing extremist, but rather ordinary liberal Catholics. I don't see a similar push from the average traditionalists to squash the OF and limit others access to it.

Certain liberals on this board couldn't even bear reading optimistic comments by traditionalist. They swooped in to be sure to dampen any hope they may have that the TLM will be widely available.

Is there a need to get even? It depends on how you define even. For me, even is seeing the TLM readily available to those who want it, and the OF as available as it is today. I think that is what most traditionalist want. This, however, seems to be a proposition that liberals find difficult to tolerate.
  #12  
Old Aug 9, '07, 4:29 pm
ncjohn ncjohn is offline
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Default Re: Liberal Tolerance: An Oxymoron

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conciliar View Post
For me, even is seeing the TLM readily available to those who want it, and the OF as available as it is today. I think that is what most traditionalist want. This, however, seems to be a proposition that liberals find difficult to tolerate.
Again, without having a definition of "liberal", it's hard to address this. I have personally not met any Pauline Mass devotees however who would not take this as an acceptable position. That is not to say that there aren't people uncomfortable with the idea, or with the lack of specifics in the MP and how it will be interpreted, just as many on the "traditionalist" side don't like the lack of specifics in many of the Vatican II documents.

Do you truly feel that the "traditionalists" agree with your position? I've not seen that to be the case among many here so I'm not really sure.
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Faithfully pursuing a journey of Peace as a Secular Franciscan

"I am a little pencil in the hand of a writing God who is sending a love letter to the world." Mother Teresa
  #13  
Old Aug 9, '07, 4:32 pm
Joysong Joysong is offline
 
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Default Re: Liberal Tolerance: An Oxymoron

What have we learned, asks the OP?

Quote:
For me, even is seeing the TLM readily available to those who want it, and the OF as available as it is today. I think that is what most traditionalist want. This, however, seems to be a proposition that liberals find difficult to tolerate.
I learned that traditionists will always label OF Catholics, not as fellow members of the Body of Christ, but as "liberals" as per the above insult, no matter how devoted or orthodox they are.

I learned that some blogs are stressing the importance of traditionists writing to the Magisterium to demand their rights, not only to weekly mass, but also to daily mass, sacraments, and subsequently even their own church.

Quote:
Our pastor, Rev. Gregory Goodguy, has kindly provided us with the extraordinary form of the Mass once each Sunday, but we would like to have that form of the Mass offered daily.] [OR Our Bishop, Most Rev. Evan Easychair, has kindly provided the extraordinary form of the Mass once each Sunday in another parish, but we would like to have that form of the Mass offered daily.]
Would Your Excellency see fit to provide our group with a chaplain, or to establish for us a personal parish? That would greatly assist us in having not only the extraordinary form of the Mass offered daily, but also weddings, funerals and the other Sacraments regularly provided according to the earlier ritual.
I learned that whenever I attend their liturgies, I would be checked at the door and possibly be dismissed if I am wearing slacks. I would be handed a lace cover for my head, and very likely celebrations at THEIR mass would demand these externals be followed without freedom of choice or conscience.

I learned that THEIR rights per the M.P., would come first, and if the priest had a choice to offer daily mass only once per day, it would be demanded that it be the EF, or pastors would have a price to pay in letters to their superiors, as per the above sample.

Now, OP, can you tell me why "liberals" would not have difficulty in accepting this brashness? Can you tell me how this unites us and why we shouldn't be alarmed?
  #14  
Old Aug 9, '07, 4:35 pm
AlexV AlexV is offline
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Default Re: Liberal Tolerance: An Oxymoron

Perhaps you should have thought of this when you decided it was just fine to abolish almost overnight what was the Roman Rite of centuries and centuries.

But, more seriously, give me a break. Does anyone seriously believe the rights of those attached to the OF are going to be brutally swept aside the way the rights of those attached to the EF have been for decades?

Give me a break indeed. Everything was possible in 1970. Suddenly everything is a problem. Whatever.
  #15  
Old Aug 9, '07, 4:48 pm
Joysong Joysong is offline
 
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Default Re: Liberal Tolerance: An Oxymoron

Quote:
Perhaps you should have thought of this when you decided it was just fine to abolish almost overnight what was the Roman Rite of centuries and centuries.
Alex, "I" did not do this, and your continual hammering against other Catholics is the main reason I no longer post here. I felt called to summarize what I have learned in my months of reading this forum, and no doubt will never return again. This forum does nothing to unite us, but serves constantly to divide, insult, ridicule, and levy charges of abuse (real or imagined); none of which offers helpful suggestions, but delights in castigating.

Do you really believe that nasty bitter rhetoric is the way to win hearts and minds to your cause? Do you not consider that a devout Catholic or Christian is able to quickly and easily discern the weeds in the wheat, in spite of the obvious Jesus pins and bumper stickers? It takes a little more than this to be authentic.

I'm not coming back to read, so have fun.
 

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