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  #1  
Old Aug 17, '07, 10:45 am
gimmegrace gimmegrace is offline
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Default Health, Wealth, movement

My mom is from a family of 12 and she is the only girl of six girls who remained Catholic.

Her sisters have all become apart of the health & Wealth Gospel. (Also referred to as Name-It & Claim-It,)

Does anybody know about this type of movement and what claims they make and how a person can show them the error in this movement? If this thread is in the wrong area, mods please move it to the correct area, I wasn't sure where to ask this question.

thanks
  #2  
Old Aug 17, '07, 10:56 am
cheddarsox cheddarsox is offline
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Default Re: Health, Wealth, movement

Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmegrace View Post
My mom is from a family of 12 and she is the only girl of six girls who remained Catholic.

Her sisters have all become apart of the health & Wealth Gospel. (Also referred to as Name-It & Claim-It,)

Does anybody know about this type of movement and what claims they make and how a person can show them the error in this movement? If this thread is in the wrong area, mods please move it to the correct area, I wasn't sure where to ask this question.

thanks
I suspect that if it is wrong, if will prove so by not working.

I don't think God plays the role of holy vending machine.
  #3  
Old Aug 17, '07, 10:59 am
scottm scottm is offline
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Default Re: Health, Wealth, movement

The "Bible Answer Man" talks about this movement often on his radio program. He's written about it in his books, too. You'll find books and info on website, equip.org, or with a phone call to his Christian Resource Institute.

The heart of their religion is the belief that by speaking words, they can bring tangible things (mostly money) into this life. There are many serious flaws in that. One flaw is the problem of evil: bad words would have to cause bad things, and all people are bad. We're in a whole lot of trouble now. Another flaw is their greed. They're looking for health and wealth and power, but Jesus and Peter and Paul and the rest of the saints in the first 300 years were anything but wealthy and powerful. (They might have been healthy, but that's only 1 out of 3.) In actuality they spoke against greed. Hey, the OT speaks against greed too! We have a problem.

Some but not necessarily all of the "name it and claim it" preachers deny the trinity. Not good.

Often the preachers make false prophesies in public: "God told me XYZ will happen," but it doesn't happen. The Bible Answer Man has documented numerous false prophesies from their actual worldwide programs on the Trinity Broadcast Network. Not good. My favorite is Benny Hinn claiming that on such-and-such date Jesus will bodily appear on stage with him. Ooops -- it did not happen!! My second favorite is Benny Hinn claiming that on such-and-such date the dead will rise all over the world while he preaches. Nope, that did not happen either!
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  #4  
Old Aug 17, '07, 11:05 am
gimmegrace gimmegrace is offline
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Default Re: Health, Wealth, movement

My aunts also say that "we take authority over this and that" like something bad can't happen to them or their families because they take authority over it.

I know that a few are involved in the Kenneth Copeland ministry but I don't know much about him beyond having heard his name once or twice.

I know that they say that when something bad happens to someone "oh, they didn't pray hard enough or believe enough so thats why that happened to them" it is so weird
  #5  
Old Aug 17, '07, 11:14 am
BeProf BeProf is offline
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Default Re: Health, Wealth, movement

The proper name for the movement is Word-Faith or "Word of Faith" and it is a *dangerous* heresy. The basic idea is that you are a little god and just as God's words have creative power (i.e. God said, "Let there be light" and there was light) so too do your words have creative power (i.e. you say "Let there be a Porche" and there it is). It posits this based on the fact that since Christ is the second Adam then everything that could be said of Christ must be able to be said of Adam. Adam was as much an incarnation of God as Jesus was. It's really just good old fashioned occult mumbo-jumbo wrapped up in christian sounding terms.

That having been said there's a hard core of heretics in the Word-Faith movement - Hagin being probably the top of the list... and then there are the more soft-core folks in the Pentacostal and Charismatic movements who still accept the basic premise of "Name it and claim it" without really accepting the whole theology of Word-Faith. I'm thinking of Joel Osteen here.

It's also worth noting that someone doesn't have to be Word-Faith to believe in divine healing. My denomination has had healing services since it was founded. It one of our distinctives. But we certainly don't believe in all that Word-Faith nonsense. We just believe that God can heal and that sometimes He does heal. When someone is sick he should take God at His word and "call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord."
  #6  
Old Aug 17, '07, 12:21 pm
dparker dparker is offline
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Default Re: Health, Wealth, movement

Well, after 26 years in a traditional large trinitarian Pentecostal church (affiliated with the Assembly of God), we have recently begun attending a "Word Faith" Pentecostal church. It's book store is full of Hagin's writings and I know several of the pastors attended Hagin's Rhema Bible School.

I have always looked down my nose at the "name it & claim it" groups as being shallow, simplistic, and carnal. Now, I'm not so sure. They simply believe the promises of scripture and expect that God will do what he says he will do. The descriptions of their beliefs that have appeared in this thread are not at all complete. Similar to saying that Baptists believe "once saved, always saved" or RCC believes in worshiping Mary. There may be a very small element of truth to the statements but they are not truly accurate.

As to money, yes, they believe in tithing. I know RCC does not believe in tithing but most all Protestant churches do. The big difference is that they don't soft pedal it. Instead of an apologetic and meek suggestion to pay "God's tithe", they boldly proclaim that this is God's plan and we should cheerfully bring God's tithe into the storehouse and that God (per Malachi 3) will pour out His blessings because of our obedience. They don't apologize for the doctrine like many Protestant churches, they embrace it. And they teach that the "blessings" that come are not necessarily monetary.

For the record, I'm with the RCC on tithing. It is clearly old covenant and is not a new testament teaching. In contrast, I believe that God owns ALL of my resources and that I must share liberally with God's work, the poor, and those in need. This should far exceed 10%.

I have never expected to agree with everything any church says or does (guess that's why I'm Protestant) but the clear difference in this Celebration Church is that God is moving there, the power and gifts of the Spirit are clearly evident, the teaching is excellent, and God is blessing the ministry.
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“If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us...but even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods...Daniel 3:17-18.
  #7  
Old Aug 17, '07, 12:22 pm
Dancelittleewok Dancelittleewok is offline
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Default Re: Health, Wealth, movement

Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmegrace View Post
My aunts also say that "we take authority over this and that" like something bad can't happen to them or their families because they take authority over it.

I know that a few are involved in the Kenneth Copeland ministry but I don't know much about him beyond having heard his name once or twice.

I know that they say that when something bad happens to someone "oh, they didn't pray hard enough or believe enough so thats why that happened to them" it is so weird
I watched Copeland today and he was talking about the same subject. (Televangelists are a special interest of mine. I watch 'em so I can learn what verses they use to support x doctrine. I would not recommending doing so without having a strong faith in the first place). Anyway, Copeland said that when Adam was originally given authoriy over the earth but with the fall he lost that authority, that is until Jesus came. When Jesus died and rose again, he returned that authority to Him and has given that same authority to all believers i.e. whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven. In order to exercise that authority, you must use your faith and proclaim what you want and it will be given. Afterall, didn't Jesus say that ask and it will be given to you. That is the reasoning behind the authority on earth thing.
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  #8  
Old Aug 17, '07, 5:44 pm
gimmegrace gimmegrace is offline
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Default Re: Health, Wealth, movement

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeProf View Post
The proper name for the movement is Word-Faith or "Word of Faith" and it is a *dangerous* heresy. The basic idea is that you are a little god and just as God's words have creative power (i.e. God said, "Let there be light" and there was light) so too do your words have creative power (i.e. you say "Let there be a Porche" and there it is). It posits this based on the fact that since Christ is the second Adam then everything that could be said of Christ must be able to be said of Adam. Adam was as much an incarnation of God as Jesus was. It's really just good old fashioned occult mumbo-jumbo wrapped up in christian sounding terms.

That having been said there's a hard core of heretics in the Word-Faith movement - Hagin being probably the top of the list... and then there are the more soft-core folks in the Pentacostal and Charismatic movements who still accept the basic premise of "Name it and claim it" without really accepting the whole theology of Word-Faith. I'm thinking of Joel Osteen here.

It's also worth noting that someone doesn't have to be Word-Faith to believe in divine healing. My denomination has had healing services since it was founded. It one of our distinctives. But we certainly don't believe in all that Word-Faith nonsense. We just believe that God can heal and that sometimes He does heal. When someone is sick he should take God at His word and "call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord."
What kind of information could I use to show them how dangerous and wrong this is?
  #9  
Old Aug 17, '07, 5:47 pm
gimmegrace gimmegrace is offline
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Default Re: Health, Wealth, movement

Quote:
Originally Posted by dparker View Post
Well, after 26 years in a traditional large trinitarian Pentecostal church (affiliated with the Assembly of God), we have recently begun attending a "Word Faith" Pentecostal church. It's book store is full of Hagin's writings and I know several of the pastors attended Hagin's Rhema Bible School.

I have always looked down my nose at the "name it & claim it" groups as being shallow, simplistic, and carnal. Now, I'm not so sure. They simply believe the promises of scripture and expect that God will do what he says he will do. The descriptions of their beliefs that have appeared in this thread are not at all complete. Similar to saying that Baptists believe "once saved, always saved" or RCC believes in worshiping Mary. There may be a very small element of truth to the statements but they are not truly accurate.

As to money, yes, they believe in tithing. I know RCC does not believe in tithing but most all Protestant churches do. The big difference is that they don't soft pedal it. Instead of an apologetic and meek suggestion to pay "God's tithe", they boldly proclaim that this is God's plan and we should cheerfully bring God's tithe into the storehouse and that God (per Malachi 3) will pour out His blessings because of our obedience. They don't apologize for the doctrine like many Protestant churches, they embrace it. And they teach that the "blessings" that come are not necessarily monetary.

For the record, I'm with the RCC on tithing. It is clearly old covenant and is not a new testament teaching. In contrast, I believe that God owns ALL of my resources and that I must share liberally with God's work, the poor, and those in need. This should far exceed 10%.

I have never expected to agree with everything any church says or does (guess that's why I'm Protestant) but the clear difference in this Celebration Church is that God is moving there, the power and gifts of the Spirit are clearly evident, the teaching is excellent, and God is blessing the ministry.
That is very interesting - thank you!! One of my aunts is married to a minister from the Rhema bible school, so I know some about Rhema.
  #10  
Old Aug 17, '07, 5:48 pm
gimmegrace gimmegrace is offline
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Default Re: Health, Wealth, movement

Oops, I got the two Kenneths confused and the Kenneth my aunts follow is Kenneth Hagin... I guess they all seem the same to me
  #11  
Old Aug 19, '07, 9:38 pm
Dancelittleewok Dancelittleewok is offline
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Default Re: Health, Wealth, movement

Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmegrace View Post
What kind of information could I use to show them how dangerous and wrong this is?
Well, it might help them to recall the words that Jesus and the Apostles said. I can't remember the exact verses but maybe someone else can help. Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a kneedle than for a rich man to enter heaven. Paul (I believe) said the love of money is the root of all evil. This is not say that riches and money are inherently evil, but that love of them is. Poverty is not a spirit or curse. Avarice is one of the seven deadly sins. Thinking of this type could leave one with the love of possession and not God whom gives these blessings. I hope this helps.
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  #12  
Old Aug 20, '07, 12:21 am
FatBoy FatBoy is offline
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Default Re: Health, Wealth, movement

Quote:
Originally Posted by dparker View Post
I have always looked down my nose at the "name it & claim it" groups as being shallow, simplistic, and carnal. Now, I'm not so sure. They simply believe the promises of scripture and expect that God will do what he says he will do. The descriptions of their beliefs that have appeared in this thread are not at all complete. Similar to saying that Baptists believe "once saved, always saved" or RCC believes in worshiping Mary. There may be a very small element of truth to the statements but they are not truly accurate.
.
I went through many Protestant denominations and no matter where I went that was all that I heard.Growing up as a preacher's kid I knew first hand that worldly riches had absolutely nothing to do with heavenly blessings. When I went back home and read scripture passages such as Romans 8 where it states the complete opposite of the prosperity gospel and knowing the life that Jesus himself lived I was devastated with the trash I continued to hear.

The bottom line is stated very clearly in Romans 8:15-17 "...When we cry, 'Abba! Father!' it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him ." This is why Purgatory makes so much sense. Suffering is what brings us closer to Christ. Getting everything you want when you want it has the complete opposite effect. Our treasure is in heaven not on earth. Jesus himself said, "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." Matthew 6:19-21

BTW what did Jesus say to the rich young ruler? I will take the liberty to answer that for you. Jesus said, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me. When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions." Matthew 19:21-22

You see, people who follow this non-sense refuse to suffer. They think suffering is evil. Yet, Jesus seems to say suffering is good and essential. I personally am going to take Jesus' word for it.
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Last edited by FatBoy; Aug 20, '07 at 12:34 am.
  #13  
Old Aug 20, '07, 12:47 am
Didi Didi is offline
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Default Re: Health, Wealth, movement

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Originally Posted by FatBoy View Post
You see, people who follow this non-sense refuse to suffer. They think suffering is evil. Yet, Jesus seems to say suffering is good and essential. I personally am going to take Jesus' word for it.
Amen!

In experiencing chronic health issues, I came upon many well-wishers who said I should just demand healing from God. Yet Jesus Himself taught that "Thy will be done, Father" both in teaching the apostles' how to pray, and when Jesus prayed in the Garden before His passion and death. In everything, we must pray Thy will be done, not our will be done.

St. John says: "And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us." (2 John 5:14)

So I began looking up key words in the concordance like: suffer, cross, burden, etc. I was so amazed at the number of Scripture verses that deal with suffering! Clearly this is an important aspect of our Christian lives, not health, wealth and prosperity.

It is in the demanding of God and in the expectation of believing that our will is in complete agreement with God's will for our lives that the name-it-and-claim it group err. I'll take God's will any day, even if it means continual suffering.

"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, is not the Father but is of the world. And the world passes away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever." (1 John 1:15-17)
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I would rather suffer with Him in this world than suffer without Him in the next!
  #14  
Old Aug 20, '07, 2:22 am
dosdog dosdog is offline
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Default Re: Health, Wealth, movement

Quote:
Originally Posted by gimmegrace View Post
My mom is from a family of 12 and she is the only girl of six girls who remained Catholic.

Her sisters have all become apart of the health & Wealth Gospel. (Also referred to as Name-It & Claim-It,)

Does anybody know about this type of movement and what claims they make and how a person can show them the error in this movement? If this thread is in the wrong area, mods please move it to the correct area, I wasn't sure where to ask this question.

thanks
http://groups.msn.com/CatholicOurWay...25722694556604

http://www.bible.ca/tongues-audio-vi...umentation.htm

Last edited by dosdog; Aug 20, '07 at 2:39 am.
  #15  
Old Aug 20, '07, 2:51 am
FatBoy FatBoy is offline
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Default Re: Health, Wealth, movement

Why did you post this group? Just wondering.
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