The Virgin Mary

[jmcrae]

Originally Posted by justasking4

Its turned to dust. That is what happens to those who die and are buried.

No, you don't understand. There is not even any dust in her grave. There have never been any bones in there. It was empty the day after she was buried in it. She did not turn to dust - she vanished. In very much the same way that Jesus did - although of course she had Divine assistance - Jesus rose from the dead all by Himself, but Mary did it with His help.

Do you agree then with all that the catholic church taught and practiced up to it? Do you have a problem with the way indulgences were being sold to build a church?

I have a problem with the priests who were keeping the money for themselves, and who were misinforming people about what an Indulgence is, but I happen to collect Indulgences myself, and I certainly don't have any problem with the concept itself.

There are lots of Protestant pastors who keep the collection plate money for themselves instead of giving it to the poor, and nobody even gets a "get out of Hell free" card for it - what a rip-off!!

[justasking4]

[Mannyfit75;2761084]

Quote:Ginger2
I don't know if that is what justasking meant, but it is a valid question.

[Mannyfit75;2761084]
Why are you avoiding the logical reason that the woman isn't Mary in Revelation 12:1?
I ask you and juskasking4, let us once interpret the Passage in Revelation 12:1-5 identifying the characters as individuals. Instead you just avoid the question. You admit that the child is Jesus yet. When I ask who is the Mother of Jesus? You just avoid the question.

Here is what the New American Bible (Catholic Bible) says about this passage:

12:1-14:20] This central section of Rev portrays the power of evil, represented by a dragon, in opposition to God and his people. First, the dragon pursues the woman about to give birth, but her son is saved and "caught up to God and his throne" (Rev 12:5). Then Michael and his angels cast the dragon and his angels out of heaven (Rev 12:7-9). After this, the dragon tries to attack the boy indirectly by attacking members of his church (Rev 12:13-17). A beast, symbolizing the Roman empire, then becomes the dragon's agent, mortally wounded but restored to life and worshiped by all the world (Rev 13:1-10). A second beast arises from the land, symbolizing the antichrist, which leads people astray by its prodigies to idolize the first beast (Rev 13:11-18). This is followed by a vision of the Lamb and his faithful ones, and the proclamation of imminent judgment upon the world in terms of the wine of God's wrath (Rev 14:1-20).
2 [1] The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from Genesis 37:9-10) symbolizes God's people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (Rev 12:6, 13-17); cf Isaiah 50:1; 66:7; Jeremiah 50:12. This corresponds to a widespread myth throughout the ancient world that a goddess pregnant with a savior was pursued by a horrible monster; by miraculous intervention, she bore a son who then killed the monster.

As you can see even catholic scholars believe as protestants do on this.

[justasking4]

jmcrae;2761200]No, you don't understand. There is not even any dust in her grave. There have never been any bones in there. It was empty the day after she was buried in it. She did not turn to dust - she vanished. In very much the same way that Jesus did - although of course she had Divine assistance - Jesus rose from the dead all by Himself, but Mary did it with His help.

There is no evidence for your claim here. Just because we don't have her bones does not mean she was assumed into heaven. We don't have the bones for all kinds of people mentioned in the NT either. Sould we assume they were assumed also?

What the catholic church does is make it sound like its speculations are facts when there is none to be had. Better to say they don't know and to leave it at that than to build a doctrine on specualtions.

I have a problem with the priests who were keeping the money for themselves, and who were misinforming people about what an Indulgence is, but I happen to collect Indulgences myself, and I certainly don't have any problem with the concept itself.

What does it mean to "collect Indulgences"?

There are lots of Protestant pastors who keep the collection plate money for themselves instead of giving it to the poor, and nobody even gets a "get out of Hell free" card for it - what a rip-off!!

i don't know if there are lots but i'm sure some are fleecing their flocks.

[jmcrae]

Originally Posted by justasking4

There is no evidence for your claim here. Just because we don't have her bones does not mean she was assumed into heaven. We don't have the bones for all kinds of people mentioned in the NT either. Sould we assume they were assumed also?

We know where they were buried, and there are human remains in their graves. Obviously we can't prove the remains are theirs, but it seems like a logical assumption. (No pun intended. )

What the catholic church does is make it sound like its speculations are facts when there is none to be had. Better to say they don't know and to leave it at that than to build a doctrine on specualtions.

You can go and visit her grave yourself, and come to your own conclusions. It's in Ephesus.

What does it mean to "collect Indulgences"?

It means that whenever I do an action that can qualify for an Indulgence, I try to make sure that I say the prayers that go with it, and do the other devotional activities associated with it, so that the merit of that action (which comes from Jesus and cannot be bought with money) can be applied to the souls in Purgatory, to hasten their arrival in Heaven.

[Michael Francis]

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