Byzantine Prayer Book

[ziggernaut]

Originally Posted by RPConover

I will admit, the 'western heretics' comment does seem like a bit of an unnecessary potshot.

Only if you are a "western heretic".




(Just kidding!!!!!! )

On a more serious note, however, this is how many Orthodox view non-Orthodox Christians, rightly or wrongly, fairly or not. But then, much has been said about all of that on other threads.

Jeff

[Hesychios]

Originally Posted by RPConover

Check out the Byzantine Catholic Church if you can! I totally understand the cultural issue... foreign and middle eastern... like Christ Himself... I honestly do understand; I'm Polish and German. I've often thought to myself how it's funny that we follow what essentially began as a middle-eastern faith, but it still can feel uncomfortable for us of European ancestry to immerse ourselves in that culture! So it goes, right? I think you'll love the Byzantine Liturgy if you get the chance to go! It's Greek in origin, no more foreign that Roman, right?

EAST Roman, of course!

It is funny but I read once that the Byzantine churches could be ranked as a western tradition. Historically, and culturally it has more in common with Roma and the West than the other (termed "oriental", sounding more exotic, and meaning the same!). Greece is the foundation of western civilization, especially the arts and philosophy. In most other ways it is thought of as 'the west', or the gateway to the west. Certainly Paul thought so when he arrived in Philippi.

The point of reference used for this "east-west" idea, of course, is Rome. But Rome itself is so far east in the old Mediterranean-based empire that it is practically on the edge of the west, if one thinks historically. I can imagine travelors heading west in ancient times and reaching Rome where, along with the Burma shave signs one would see "Last stop for gas" before heading into the mostly empty forested wildernesses.

Lumping everything east of Rome together into one pot makes no more sense than lumping everything north of the Alps together.

Michael

[scapularkid8]

Originally Posted by ziggernaut

If you want something more "Catholic", yet still Eastern, check out the Byzantine Book of Prayer. You can get it here: http://www.byzantines.net/byzantinepress/books.htm#lit

Yeah, I'm having buyer's guilt right now seeing that I probably would've preferred that one. Oh well. My aim was just to have some sort of Eastern Catholic "style" prayer book.

Perhaps if I get more involved in Eastern Catholicism, I'll buy it. But for now I'd say that Jordanville is just fine.

I can fully understand the source of the comment. It just hurt me since I've been kneeling and using the breast strike at the Confeitor since as long as I can remember...I never saw it as heretical, just a different way of asking God for forgiveness than the Eastern head bow!....you learn something new every day!

[Woodstock]

I have the Holy Myrrhbearers Manual of the Hours, Kathisma Psalter, and Book of Occasional Prayers and I recommend them all. They are user-friendly, directed to laymen's needs, and inexpensive.

[scapularkid8]

I like that they're user friendly and inexpensive, but are they Catholic friendly??!

[Woodstock]

Originally Posted by scapularkid8

I like that they're user friendly and inexpensive, but are they Catholic friendly??!

I haven't read every line of the occasional prayers, but of the ones I do pray and based on the table of contents, there aren't any prayers for heretics, westerners, or non-Orthodox--or even reference to them in the prefaces--that would offend you. The word orthodox is correctly translated as it should be, just as we wouldn't expect the Orthodox to change the creed to say "I believe in one, holy, universal, and apostolic church..." Other than that, I haven't seen anything problematic.

The introduction to the Hours book talks about how Christians pray, and really seems to try to avoid even singling the book out as being only for Orthodox.

It does use modern language instead of thees and thous like the Jordanville prayerbook. I like that except for the Heavenly King prayer. I can't pray it any other way but how I first learned it. I learned, "O Heavenly King, Comforter, Spirit of Truth, Who art everywhere present and fillest all things..." while this one says, "O Heavenly King, Comforter, Spirit of Truth, You are everywhere and fill all things..." I just substitute my own version.

The recent Ruthenian revision took hyssop out of Psalm 51, which had great symbolism, but they said something about it being added in the Septuagint. I don't know. It now says "O purify me, then I shall be clean; O wash me, I shall be whiter than snow." Since that's my favorite line, I like the Holy Myrrhbearers' version for that, too, because it says "Purge me with hyssop and I shall be clean; wash me and I shall be whiter than snow."

Unless you insist on the thees and thous, I think it would be a great book or three to have.

[Woodstock]

Manual of the Hours
Table of Contents

Prefaces:
English Edition
First Greek Edition [translated to English]
Second Greek Edition [translated to English]

Selections from the Services:
Vespers
Compline
Midnight Service
Matins
First Hour
Third Hour
Sixth Hour
Ninth Hour

Appendix 1
Additional Prayers and Hymns:
Opening Prayers
The Prayer of the Hours
The Symbol of Faith [Creed]
The Song of the Theotokos
The Prayer of St. Ephraim

Appendix 2
Prayers at Table
Prayers for Holy Communion

[Woodstock]

Occasional Prayers
Table of Contents

Preface and Introduction

Basic and Introductory Prayers:
Variations according to Feasts of the Church, Trisagion Prayers, The Lord's Prayer, Psalm 51, The Creed or Symbol of Faith

Morning Prayers:
Prayers, A prayer of St. Basil the Great, A Prayer by St. Macarius the Great, A Second Prayer by St. Macarius the Great, A Third Prayer by St. Macarius the Great, A Fourth Prayer by St. Macarius the Great, Another Prayer by St. Basil the Great, A Prayer of Metropolitan Philaret of Moscow, A Prayer to Our Guardian Angel, A Prayer to the Theotokos, A Prayer to Our Patron Saint

Evening Prayers:
Verses of Thanksgiving, Penitential Verses, A Prayer by St. Macarius the Great, Another Prayer, A Prayer for Forgiveness of Sins, A Child's Evening Prayer, A Prayer to the Guardian Angel, An Evening Prayer to the Theotokos, A Prayer of St. Joannicius, A Prayer of St. Simeon the God-bearer, A Prayer of St. John Damascus

Prayers of Intercession:
A General Commemoration of the Living, A General Commemoration of the Departed, A Shorter Prayer of General Intercession, A Prayer for Parents and Their Unborn Child, A Prayer for a Person Who is Sick, A Prayer for a Sick Child, A Prayer Before a Surgery or Procedure, A Prayer After an Accident of Injury, A Prayer After an Attempted Suicide, A Prayer for a Dying Person, A Second Prayer for a Dying Person, A Prayer for One Who is Departed, A Prayer for a Child Who Has Died

Prayers and Hymns to the Theotokos:
Hymns to the Theotokos, A Prayer to the Theotokos in Time of Need, A Prayer to the Theotokos in Time of Thanksgiving, The Kontakion of the Annunciation

Prayers for Particular Occasions:
A Prayer by St. John Chrysostom for Each of the 24 Hours, A Prayerful Beginning of any Undertaking, A Prayer at the Completion of any Undertaking, Another Prayer of Thanksgiving, A Prayer of Married Couples, A Child's Prayer, A Prayer for Guidance, Another Prayer, A Prayer Before Traveling, A Prayer in Time of Trouble, A Prayer to Increase Love, Prayers for Our Enemies, Prayers for Protection Against Danger, A Prayer in Time of Illness, A Prayer After Recovery From Illness, A Brief Prayer of Repentance, A Longer Prayer of Repentance

[RPConover]

I say just Sharpie over the word heretic is it really bothers you or get out an exacto knife.

[Woodstock]

Originally Posted by RPConover

I say just Sharpie over the word heretic is it really bothers you or get out an exacto knife.

If you just got it, you can return it. Or you could sell it to another parishioner for cost. If you paid $15 plus shipping, you could get the Manual of the Hours and the Occasional Prayers together for less than what you paid for the one since they are $6 a piece. The Psalter adds the daily Psalms and is much larger and costs $15. The $6 books can be used independently, but the Psalter needs the Hours to go with it.

[VL93]

Originally Posted by RPConover

I will admit, the 'western heretics' comment does seem like a bit of an unnecessary potshot.

FWIW, RPConover and scapularkid8, please don't take the "western heretics" comment personally. For better or worse, that's simply the "persona" of the authors. In fact, one of the Archimandrites (at the time) in Jordanville once told me not to use the Old Orthodox Prayer Book (from the ROCOR Old Rite parish in Erie - who were, and are, part of the self-same Church!!) ... because "it contains heretical material."

[scapularkid8]

Originally Posted by VL93

scapularkid8, please don't take the "western heretics" comment personally. For better or worse, that's simply the "persona" of the authors.

Oh, by no means did it offend me, I just was worried that it would disrupt the flow of prayer along with the following request in the Litany where prayers are said for the leaders of the Orthodox church...I would also have to pause there and remember the name of the Metropolitan of the Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh. (Most Reverend Basil Schott)

[Woodstock]

Originally Posted by scapularkid8

I would also have to pause there and remember the name of the Metropolitan of the Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh. (Most Reverend Basil Schott)

Put a sticky tab on the page if you forget his name. You can also add or substitute your Latin bishop's name. These are your private prayers and a litany is an appropriate place to put such petitions.

FYI: bishops are only referred to by their first name and the last name is used only as a clarification to avoid confusion, and then traditionally put in parentheses.

The Ruthenian version would read:
We also pray for our holy ecumenical pontiff Benedict, Pope of Rome, and for our most reverend archbishop and metropolitan Basil, for our God loving bishop Andrew, for those who serve and have served in this holy church, for our spiritual fathers, and for all our brethren in Christ.

I think there is a modification for the church line when praying at home. I don't remember it. Maybe someone else knows?

The line praying for "all orthodox Christians" is perfectly acceptable to pray.

[Aramis]

Originally Posted by Hesychios

No. In the Ruthenian liturgy it is (or was, as I remember it) translated as "Christians of the True Faith" which is essentially what Orthodox Christians means in that context.

The Ukrainian Catholics, and possibly the Melkite Catholics, use the term Orthodox directly in the liturgy.

Oh, about that 'heretics' comment, just ignore it. But don't beat your breast or kneel with that book in your hands!

Mea Culpa...
Michael

"... all you orthodox Christians of the True Faith"
Byzantine (Ruthenian) DL of St John.

We do, too.

[Mickey]

Originally Posted by Aramis

"... all you orthodox Christians of the True Faith"
Byzantine (Ruthenian) DL of St John.

We do, too.

Unless I am somehow misunderstanding you, the Ruthenian Catholics do not use the word "orthodox" in their translation. Some even get quite angry if it is used.