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  #1  
Old Oct 15, '07, 8:02 am
RunningLawyer RunningLawyer is offline
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Default In The Nicene Creed: Is it "Human" or "Man"

When saying the Nicene Creed our priest says "and became human." The parish says "man," because everyone is reading from the Missal, and that is what it says. What is it supposed to be?

"by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man."
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  #2  
Old Oct 15, '07, 8:05 am
Br. Rich SFO Br. Rich SFO is offline
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Default Re: In The Nicene Creed: Is it "Human" or "Man"

Quote:
Originally Posted by RunningLawyer View Post
When saying the Nicene Creed our priest says "and became human." The parish says "man," because everyone is reading from the Missal, and that is what it says. What is it supposed to be?

"by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man."
He became "Man", this is the part where everyone is supposed to be bowing also.
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  #3  
Old Oct 15, '07, 9:08 am
Gizmo Gizmo is offline
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Default Re: In The Nicene Creed: Is it "Human" or "Man"

Yeah - he became 'man'. You were saying it right.

Pray for your priest that he may start saying it the right way.
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  #4  
Old Oct 15, '07, 9:10 am
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tee_eff_em tee_eff_em is offline
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Cool Re: In The Nicene Creed: Is it "Human" or "Man"

Quote:
Originally Posted by RunningLawyer View Post
When saying the Nicene Creed our priest says "and became human." The parish says "man," because everyone is reading from the Missal, and that is what it says. What is it supposed to be?

"by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man."
"[A]nd became man" is the current approved English translation, which no one has the authority to alter without the approval of the Apostolic See.


It is a dicey question for those who do not accept that man denotes "a member of the human race". The Latin is et homo factus est the operative word being homo. "Became human" is not right -- human is an adjective (man, like homo, is a noun). "Became a human being" is not right either -- He did not become a human being, he remains a divine being.

I say leave it as man, and teach those whose knowledge seems deficient the proper (and inclusive) meaning of the English word.

tee
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  #5  
Old Oct 16, '07, 10:49 am
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Default Re: In The Nicene Creed: Is it "Human" or "Man"

The proper and correct form is "He became Man." To merely say, "He became Human" would open doors to countless of possible heresies.
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  #6  
Old Oct 16, '07, 11:00 am
bpbasilphx bpbasilphx is offline
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Default Re: In The Nicene Creed: Is it "Human" or "Man"

<<To merely say, "He became Human" would open doors to countless of possible heresies.>>

The Greek text of the Creed uses "anthropos" (specifically the word "enantropizanta", which can only be calched as "humanbeingified") which means generic human being rather than gender specific male.

What heresies are opened up by the Greek text of the Creed?

(I'm not saying that the Priest should not use the liturgically authorized text of the Creed, but this is another issue.)
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  #7  
Old Oct 16, '07, 12:33 pm
Ad Deum Ad Deum is offline
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Default Re: In The Nicene Creed: Is it "Human" or "Man"

I think that in Biblical term, the word "man" means human.

Pax
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  #8  
Old Oct 16, '07, 3:44 pm
palmas85 palmas85 is offline
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Default Re: In The Nicene Creed: Is it "Human" or "Man"

Quote:
Originally Posted by RunningLawyer View Post
When saying the Nicene Creed our priest says "and became human." The parish says "man," because everyone is reading from the Missal, and that is what it says. What is it supposed to be?

"by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man."
Man is correct. Human is not. Your Pastor is a modern and progressive thinker who doesn't want to take the chance of offending anyone,
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  #9  
Old Oct 16, '07, 3:52 pm
dessert dessert is offline
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Default Re: In The Nicene Creed: Is it "Human" or "Man"

Actually He became flesh, but it doesn't say that ither.
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  #10  
Old Oct 16, '07, 5:44 pm
RunningLawyer RunningLawyer is offline
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Default Re: In The Nicene Creed: Is it "Human" or "Man"

It just sounds peculiar during the Creed, because everyone reads the Missal and says "man," yet the Priest is clearly audible by his microphone saying "human." I think it creates controversy, but I seem to be getting picky as I get older.
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  #11  
Old Oct 22, '07, 1:13 pm
benedictgal benedictgal is offline
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Default Re: In The Nicene Creed: Is it "Human" or "Man"

Actually, according to Redemptionis Sacramentum, no one, not the bishop nor the priest (or, anyone, for that matter), has the authority to change the wording of the fixed liturgical texts. While y'all list many valid points for retaining the word "Man", ultimately, it is an abuse of the liturgy for the priest-celebrant to change any part of the Mass on a whim.

Even Pope Benedict makes this perfectly clear in his Apostolic Exhortation, Sacramentum Caritatis.
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  #12  
Old Oct 22, '07, 1:26 pm
brittrossiter brittrossiter is offline
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Default Re: In The Nicene Creed: Is it "Human" or "Man"

This is a serious abuse. I would try addressing the matter with the priest, and if he is unwilling to change, he should be reported to the Bishop.

As the controversy over the filioque should teach, changes to the Creed should not be viewed lightly, and certainly not so cavalierly as this priest apparently views them.
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  #13  
Old Oct 22, '07, 1:44 pm
RunningLawyer RunningLawyer is offline
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Default Re: In The Nicene Creed: Is it "Human" or "Man"

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Originally Posted by brittrossiter View Post
This is a serious abuse. I would try addressing the matter with the priest, and if he is unwilling to change, he should be reported to the Bishop.
I did speak with the senior pastor who agreed with me that "became man" is correct. He is not the pastor who was saying "human." At the last Mass, a different pastor presided, though the original pastor attended.

So I am waiting for the original pastor to say Mass again to find out if he has been corrected.

That being said, I want to stress that I pray for all priests, because I understand that they are under attack from the media and other nonbelievers. They have a lot to worry about without some upstart at Mass like me questioning them about the Nicene Creed. But what happened was obvious and strange. In fact it happened twice before I raised the issue.

Still waiting.
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  #14  
Old Oct 22, '07, 2:57 pm
Kielbasi Kielbasi is offline
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Default Re: In The Nicene Creed: Is it "Human" or "Man"

Quote:
Originally Posted by RunningLawyer View Post
When saying the Nicene Creed our priest says "and became human." The parish says "man," because everyone is reading from the Missal, and that is what it says. What is it supposed to be?

"by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man."
Actually the Nicene Creed is a Latin prayer, and what is said in church is a translation. Generations of translators, both Catholic and protestant, have deemed the "became man" to be the most accurate and appropriate.

Perhaps at some time in the future, English will change sufficiently that your priest's translation will be considered better, but right now the term "man" fits much better.

The entire thought I think your priest has (always dangerous trying to get in the mind of someone you've never met) is that "man" is a sexist term and seems to leave women out. Just some of that gender-neutral stuff which hasn't yet prevailed in the language.
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Old Oct 22, '07, 3:18 pm
benedictgal benedictgal is offline
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Default Re: In The Nicene Creed: Is it "Human" or "Man"

Hello, Runninglawyer!

I think you've missed the boat on what everyone's trying to say. The liturgical documents all say that no one has the authority to change the wording used at the Mass nor the rubrics. It's not just the simple question of using "Human", as opposed to "Man." This "change" and "novelty" that the priest is introducing is in clear violation of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal and Redepmtionis Sacramentum. In fact, it is a reprobate practice.

You're not being an upstart by calling this issue into question. I'm assuming, through your nickmane, that you are a lawyer. As an attorney, you must follow the rules and codes of the courtroom as established by your state. If you err, the judge can dismiss your case and you lose an a technicality. Conversely, if the other side is not following the rules of evidence or the code of the courtroom, the judge can rule in your favor. The same holds true for the Mass. All of us must follow all of the texts and rubrics as approved by the Holy See. We are bound by obedience to Peter and his Successors. The bishops' conferences, too, must receive approval from the Holy See before any changes are made. They, too, are bound by obedience.

When Jesus cleaned out the Temple, he did so because of the abuses that were going on in his Father's house. Granted, we hope we don't have money changers in our churches. Nonetheless, we need to have the same "zeal" when it comes to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
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