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  #1  
Old Nov 18, '07, 5:42 am
Abbadon Abbadon is offline
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Default Adam + Eve + Incest

For a psych paper a friend had topic of incest and we got into deep discussions about it. And we got into religions view of it. I talked about how as catholics incest is taboo, pointed out Leviticus and said i would search from more.

But then the conversation went into Adam and Eve paradox. The resources and previous discussions on the net weren't very helpful. In general it seems to be roughly this answer

http://www.biblebell.org/mbag/mailbagae.html

scroll down to the incest question. And there are so many things wrong with it. Gods law doesn't change i thought, but according to this it does. he's okay with incest then not okay then okay again? And according to this the genetic decay began from noah which means shouldn't that incest not have been okay and there would have been major problems?

My only quam is that in the past incest is okay but it's not okay now why?

A secondary question, how come king David can have multiple wives and concubines and be a "key child of god" but today we can only have one partner? 2 Samuel 5:13 which is direct contradiction to Genesis 2:24 and Deut 17:17.

Sorry about my constant questions but i tend to think alot and observing answers on this forum helps me deal with my own questions.
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  #2  
Old Nov 18, '07, 7:20 am
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: Adam + Eve + Incest

Indeed, the divine law does not change. Incest in the direct line (child/parent/grandparent) is against the divine law and is intrinsically wrong.

Incest in the collateral line (siblings/cousins/etc) is not intrinsically wrong-- and as you have pointed out was allowed for a time in Genesis. It was later proscribed due to sin in the world-- it became necessary. It is not part of the divine law-- and even today is merely regulated by canon law and it can be dispensed.

Polygamy has never been part God's Law. The Jews-- like the pagans around them allowed it-- along with divorce-- through their own earthly authority. Remember, Jesus chastized the Jews for their denigration of marriage and says "in the beginning it was not so". Jesus restores marriage to what it was originally.
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  #3  
Old Nov 18, '07, 9:17 am
TC2 TC2 is offline
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Default Re: Adam + Eve + Incest

It's always been interesting to me, about the direct line inscest, that Lot and his daughters are part of Christ's lineage.
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  #4  
Old Nov 18, '07, 10:05 am
DaveBj DaveBj is offline
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Default Re: Adam + Eve + Incest

Incest was not a problem for the immediate descendants of Adam and Eve. It became a problem when the deterioration of the gene pool meant that there was an increased likelihood that the offspring of the unions of near relatives would inherit physical or mental problems. Adam's immediate descendants inherited perfect or nearly perfect genes, so the unions of near relatives were not a problem. Besides, near relatives were the only people who existed.

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  #5  
Old Nov 18, '07, 8:47 pm
Abbadon Abbadon is offline
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Default Re: Adam + Eve + Incest

Okay so it is firmly established that it is wrong yes...

So then why would god create a situation (two including Noah) where people were forced to have incest?

I'm not really interested in the genetics and the possibility or not if adam and eve are true. I'm more interested in the moral implications of this creation story. I mean anyone can say anything like "oh adam and eves genes were perfect" blah blah without any real evidence and belive it, so lets just skip that.

Same with Noah, how could god expect these two families to propagate the human species without sining? And then why put them in a situation where they had to sin?

Even if the stories are merely metaphors there is still the question of the morality of the actions. I can't really figure out how to solve this one so I'm hoping other people have...

Quote:
Polygamy has never been part God's Law. The Jews-- like the pagans around them allowed it-- along with divorce-- through their own earthly authority. Remember, Jesus chastized the Jews for their denigration of marriage and says "in the beginning it was not so". Jesus restores marriage to what it was originally.
Thats fine and understandable, but David was meant to be an example to others of what people should look up to. As he was specially chosen by god. And there are always quotes such as "god is surely with him". Why would god be with a polygamist?
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  #6  
Old Nov 19, '07, 7:29 am
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: Adam + Eve + Incest

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbadon View Post
Okay so it is firmly established that it is wrong yes...

So then why would god create a situation (two including Noah) where people were forced to have incest?
No, it is not firmly established that it is "wrong". As I said before it is NOT intrinsically disordered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbadon View Post
Same with Noah, how could god expect these two families to propagate the human species without sining? And then why put them in a situation where they had to sin?
There is no sin in inter-marrying in the collateral line in the examples you give. It is not against the divine law, and at that time God had not given any disciplinary laws against it either (which is what canon law is). It became necessary to restrict marriage over time due to man's sin, not due to any inherent wrongness of marrying close relatives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbadon View Post
Even if the stories are merely metaphors there is still the question of the morality of the actions. I can't really figure out how to solve this one so I'm hoping other people have...
It's easy: it's not immoral.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbadon View Post
Thats fine and understandable, but David was meant to be an example to others of what people should look up to. As he was specially chosen by god. And there are always quotes such as "god is surely with him". Why would god be with a polygamist?
He was specially chosen by God to be the king. That does not mean he was sinless nor should his every action be emulated-- he had Uriah killed to marry Bathsheba. He was a sinner. God brings good out of evil. And, David paid for his sins.
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  #7  
Old Nov 19, '07, 8:49 am
Joyousguard Joyousguard is offline
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Default Re: Adam + Eve + Incest

Did the mustard seed actual exist? Was there really a prodigal son? Who was the good samaritan?

There is some excellent theology in the creation story, but that Adam and Eve really existed or more approprietly, that they were only two people with all of humanity coming from them is not meant to be taken literaly. Adam and Eve could in fact be considered a representaion of the creation of mankind simplified to 2 persons for the people of the time to better understand and thus accept. Adam and Eve where not 2 people but possibly thousands i fnot more. The important concept to understand is that Adam and Eve are representaion of mankind in its origins.

They, not just Adam and Eve, reject the will of God and thus were thrown out of paradise and there children, Cain and Able (simplified to 2 but possibly representing thousands) represent the first generation of mankind outside of paradise and we start to see mankind change with issues of jealous deciet and even murder come into existence.

The theology in Genesis is excellent but not meant to be always taken literally
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  #8  
Old Nov 19, '07, 8:55 am
geauxtigers geauxtigers is offline
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Default Re: Adam + Eve + Incest

Quote:
Originally Posted by TC2 View Post
It's always been interesting to me, about the direct line inscest, that Lot and his daughters are part of Christ's lineage.
I was going to say that Lot and his daughters were NOT in Christ's direct lineage, but then I remembered that Ruth was a Moabitess (sp?)

Genesis 19:37
The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab ; he is the father of the Moabites of today.


With Noah and his family, the three sons were already married, so the only incest that would have occurred is between first cousins, when their children married, and I don't think that was forbidden in the Bible.
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  #9  
Old Nov 19, '07, 9:15 am
fix fix is offline
 
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Default Re: Adam + Eve + Incest

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joyousguard View Post
Did the mustard seed actual exist? Was there really a prodigal son? Who was the good samaritan?

There is some excellent theology in the creation story, but that Adam and Eve really existed or more approprietly, that they were only two people with all of humanity coming from them is not meant to be taken literaly. Adam and Eve could in fact be considered a representaion of the creation of mankind simplified to 2 persons for the people of the time to better understand and thus accept. Adam and Eve where not 2 people but possibly thousands i fnot more. The important concept to understand is that Adam and Eve are representaion of mankind in its origins.

They, not just Adam and Eve, reject the will of God and thus were thrown out of paradise and there children, Cain and Able (simplified to 2 but possibly representing thousands) represent the first generation of mankind outside of paradise and we start to see mankind change with issues of jealous deciet and even murder come into existence.

The theology in Genesis is excellent but not meant to be always taken literally
HUMANI GENERIS

Quote:
For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is no no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.[12]
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  #10  
Old Nov 19, '07, 10:38 am
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: Adam + Eve + Incest

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joyousguard View Post
There is some excellent theology in the creation story, but that Adam and Eve really existed or more approprietly, that they were only two people with all of humanity coming from them is not meant to be taken literaly.
This is incompatible with Catholic doctrine. Monogenesis is absolutely required belief.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joyousguard View Post
Adam and Eve could in fact be considered a representaion of the creation of mankind simplified to 2 persons for the people of the time to better understand and thus accept.
Nope. The Church teaches that we had a real set of first parents, from whom all descend and from whom Original Sin is inherited. This is not open to other interpretations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joyousguard View Post
The theology in Genesis is excellent but not meant to be always taken literally
But, the Church does teach definitively which parts are to be taken literally. Therefore, your explanation cannot be reconciled with Church teaching.
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ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.
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  #11  
Old Nov 19, '07, 10:39 am
Joyousguard Joyousguard is offline
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Default Re: Adam + Eve + Incest

I guess that shoots down that theory
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  #12  
Old Nov 21, '07, 12:30 am
Abbadon Abbadon is offline
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Default Re: Adam + Eve + Incest

Okay so let me get this straight marrying my sister is not immoral? What about mother?
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  #13  
Old Nov 21, '07, 1:15 am
adrift adrift is offline
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Default Re: Adam + Eve + Incest

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
Indeed, the divine law does not change. Incest in the direct line (child/parent/grandparent) is against the divine law and is intrinsically wrong.

Incest in the collateral line (siblings/cousins/etc) is not intrinsically wrong-- and as you have pointed out was allowed for a time in Genesis. It was later proscribed due to sin in the world-- it became necessary. It is not part of the divine law-- and even today is merely regulated by canon law and it can be dispensed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbadon View Post
Okay so let me get this straight marrying my sister is not immoral? What about mother?
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  #14  
Old Nov 21, '07, 1:45 am
Abbadon Abbadon is offline
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Default Re: Adam + Eve + Incest

Quote:
It was later proscribed due to sin in the world-- it became necessary. It is not part of the divine law-- and even today is merely regulated by canon law and it can be dispensed.
I don't understand what does that (above) mean? If cain/able were allowed to sleep with his mother/sisters why can't I?

And what is canon law?
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  #15  
Old Nov 21, '07, 1:51 am
Abbadon Abbadon is offline
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Default Re: Adam + Eve + Incest

Then what about Leviticus 18:6-18

Isn't Leviticus the law of god?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...icus%2018:6-18
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