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  #1  
Old Jun 6, '04, 7:08 am
Socrates4Jesus Socrates4Jesus is offline
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Question How do i get to heaven

I think this is a really important question. Does anyone have an answer?
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  #2  
Old Jun 6, '04, 7:43 am
Socrates4Jesus Socrates4Jesus is offline
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Red face Re: How do i get to heaven

Ooops!


Sorry, i did not notice the post i left yesterday with the same question. I thought it was deleted somehow.
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  #3  
Old Jun 6, '04, 8:12 am
Sirach14 Sirach14 is offline
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Default Re: How do i get to heaven

Salvation is for we who "confess with our lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead" (Rom 10:9, John 3:16) while for sin we "bear fruits that befit repentance" (Rom 5:8, Luke 3:8, 1John 1:6-9). This salvation is by “grace through faith and not of works” (Eph 2:8-9, Rom 4:4-5; 5:10; 11:6, Gal 3:11). In this gift all our sins are forgiven (1John 1:6-9, 2Pet 1:9), we are made into a new creation (2Cor 5:17), we become adopted children of God (Rom 8:23, John 1:12, 1John 3:1; 5:1), and are promised the eternal inheritance (Mat 19:29, Heb 9:15). We receive all this upon being born again:
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  #4  
Old Jun 6, '04, 8:16 am
Sirach14 Sirach14 is offline
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Default Re: How do i get to heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus
I think this is a really important question. Does anyone have an answer?
Now having such a great salvation (Heb 2:3), we live in Jesus in the Lord's Supper of thanksgiving remembrance (Mat 26:26-28, Luke 22:19-20, John 6:53-56, Col 2:6-7) and in "faith working through love" (Gal 5:6, 1Cor 13:2.13, Eph 2:10, 2Peter 1:3-11, 1Thess 5:15-23, John 15:4-12). Our works are not from ourselves, but are given to us by God (Philip 2:13) and preserve or increase the righteousness given to us as a gift (Mat 25:14-30, Rom 6:16, Rev 19:7-8, Jam 2:14-26, cf Gen 22:12, Psalm 106:30-31). We are also charged to “lead a life worthy” of God and Gospel (1Thess 2:12, Col 1:10, Philip 1:27) “knowing that we will receive the inheritance as our reward” (Col 3:23-24, Rom 2:6-7, Mat 5:7-12; 25:34-36, Luke 6:35; 18:18-22, Gal 6:8-9). Thus we “strive for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb 12:14, 2Cor 7:1). Yet “if any one does sin” we repent and are consoled, “confessing our sins to one another” (Jam 5:16, John 20:22-23), knowing that “we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” (1John 1:9-2:1, Rev 2:5).

Thus saved by grace alone, the Gospel invites us to humbly confess: “We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty” (Luke 17:10). Yet it permits the hope (Rom 5:2-5) that Christ will say “Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master” (Mat 25:21).
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  #5  
Old Jun 6, '04, 8:17 am
Socrates4Jesus Socrates4Jesus is offline
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Default Re: How do i get to heaven

Right, we must be born again, or "born from above" as Jesus says in the New American Bible (John 3, verse 3).

It seems to me this has something to do with a change in a person's life (hence, the new creation, as St. Paul put it).

Will you elaborate on the requirement to get into heaven that we not rely on our own good deeds (or good works as St. Paul put it)?

Thanks, Sirach!
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  #6  
Old Jun 6, '04, 8:26 am
Sirach14 Sirach14 is offline
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Default Re: How do i get to heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus
Right, we must be born again, or "born from above" as Jesus says in the New American Bible (John 3, verse 3).

It seems to me this has something to do with a change in a person's life (hence, the new creation, as St. Paul put it).

Will you elaborate on the requirement to get into heaven that we not rely on our own good deeds (or good works as St. Paul put it)?

Thanks, Sirach!
Creed of Salvation was taken from http://panoply.home.att.net
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  #7  
Old Jun 6, '04, 8:40 am
Sirach14 Sirach14 is offline
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Wink Re: How do i get to heaven

Allow me to quote Pillar of Fire-Pillar of Truth.

"The Catholic Church teaches what the apostles taught and what the Bible teaches: We are saved by grace alone, but not faith alone ( which is what 'Bible Christians' teach; see Jas. 2:24). When we first come to God and are justified ( that is, enter a right relationship with God), nothing preceding justification, whether faith or good works, earns grace. But then God plants his love in our hearts, and we must live out our faith by doing acts of love ( Gal. 6:2)
"Even though only God's grace enables us to love others, these acts of love please him, and he promisis to reward them with eternal life ( Rom. 2:6-7, Gal. 6:6-10). Thus good works are meritorious..."

Pillar of Fire-Pillar of Truth
pg. 23, A Catholic Answer Booklet.

I believe that the Evangelical, or Fundamentalists interpretation of John 3:5 (" Born Again") is a change of heart, mind, or you can say character or life style.
In my opinion the Evangelical interpretation is a work. When one decides that they are going to make a change from a dishonest person to an honest person, or a drunk to a non-drinker this is a work.
Even telling yourself you are going to receive Christ as "personal Savior" is a work.

Last edited by Sirach14; Jun 6, '04 at 8:55 am.
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  #8  
Old Jun 6, '04, 9:41 am
Socrates4Jesus Socrates4Jesus is offline
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Lightbulb Re: How do i get to heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirach14

I believe that the Evangelical, or Fundamentalists interpretation of John 3:5 (" Born Again") is a change of heart, mind, or you can say character or life style.
In my opinion the Evangelical interpretation is a work. When one decides that they are going to make a change from a dishonest person to an honest person, or a drunk to a non-drinker this is a work.
Even telling yourself you are going to receive Christ as "personal Savior" is a work.
I'd like to explore this idea. If you are correct, it would change my whole outlook on this.



I'm a little simple minded, so i often fall back on examples to help me understand new concepts. Let me try to use one, here, & see how your concept fits into it.



The example from Scripture i've heard given is from Luke, chapter 23. The two criminals crucified with Jesus began mocking Him (Mark 15, verse 32).



However, one of them had a change of heart, & perhaps realizing who Jesus was said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."



Jesus' reply: "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."



What i see in this example is that the man had a change of mind about Jesus (repentance) & asked, in my opinion, to be resurrected from the dead & allowed to be with Jesus when He returns to earth. Jesus' answer, i believe, was that the man would be with Him in heaven that very day.



This, to me, is an example of making it to heaven without doing any good works. The man could not be baptized or partake in Holy Communion. He did not even confess His sins & need to be forgiven (though in His mind he may have done so).



I think, then, that my concept to good works is narrower than your own. A good work, it seems to me, is something a person DOES. While confession & repentance are more something a person thinks. Hence, the criminal executed next to Jesus did no good work to reward him with Paradise.



However, if i'm wrong, i hope you will be able to help me see.
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  #9  
Old Jun 6, '04, 9:51 am
JimG JimG is offline
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Default Re: How do i get to heaven

Since the thread is about getting into heaven, I'm surprised that no one has referenced Jesus words about the last judgment in Matthew 25:31ff, where the Lord separates the sheep from the goats, and the criteria he uses. That's the one that always gives me pause.

JimG
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  #10  
Old Jun 6, '04, 10:04 am
Flounder Flounder is offline
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Default Re: How do i get to heaven

Perhaps being on a death bed or hanging on a cross are reasons folks get in who don't do good works. But to "convert" and then not perform any good works because the good thief Dismas didn't would not justify failing to live out one's life in Christ.
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  #11  
Old Jun 6, '04, 10:12 am
Socrates4Jesus Socrates4Jesus is offline
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Default Re: How do i get to heaven

Jim:

Yeah, first time i heard Christ's words from Matthew 25 i was a child in "church school" (i was in public school but attended once a week for an hour) & the nun showed a movie that quoted this chapter.

"For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me."

I think most of the Protestants i've met would read those words of Jesus & agree those are things they should do. The difference, however, is that they would say those things would be done out of obligation or gratitude to their Savior, but not out of any hope that they would help them receive heaven as a reward.

Many would even say that those who refuse to do these good works are really fooling themselves if they think they have really repented & put their trust in Jesus Christ to save them from hell.

The good works, they would argue, are the result or (not the reason) for their redemption. The good things they do, they may explain, are the consequence (not the cause) of their being rescued from hell.

But what do you think?
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  #12  
Old Jun 6, '04, 10:15 am
Socrates4Jesus Socrates4Jesus is offline
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Default Re: How do i get to heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder
Perhaps being on a death bed or hanging on a cross are reasons folks get in who don't do good works. But to "convert" and then not perform any good works because the good thief Dismas didn't would not justify failing to live out one's life in Christ.
Good point, Flounder.
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  #13  
Old Jun 6, '04, 10:19 am
Sirach14 Sirach14 is offline
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Lightbulb Re: How do i get to heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimG
Since the thread is about getting into heaven, I'm surprised that no one has referenced Jesus words about the last judgment in Matthew 25:31ff, where the Lord separates the sheep from the goats, and the criteria he uses. That's the one that always gives me pause.

JimG
This is the sin of omission, doing nothing, when you should have reached out to do something.
Some non-Catholics will try to tell you that Matthew 25:31 was written for the Jews, and not Christians, because the idea of good works is so repugnant to them.
They even hate what St. Paul says: " God will repay everyone according to his *works*: eternal life for those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness" ( Rom. 2:7-8).
A few more:
Matt.7:21
Mt.19:16-17
Jn. 14:21
Gal. 5:4-6
Eph 2:8-10
Phil 2:12-13
Jas 2:14-24

Judged According to Deeds

Rom. 2:5-8
2 Cor 11:15
2 Cor 11:15
1 Pet 1:17
Rev 20:12-13 This verse dosen't say anything about being " Born Again"--it tells us the dead will be judged according to their deeds.
Col 3:24-25
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  #14  
Old Jun 6, '04, 10:33 am
JimG JimG is offline
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Default Re: How do i get to heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus
I think most of the Protestants i've met would read those words of Jesus & agree those are things they should do. The difference, however, is that they would say those things would be done out of obligation or gratitude to their Savior, but not out of any hope that they would help them receive heaven as a reward.

Many would even say that those who refuse to do these good works are really fooling themselves if they think they have really repented & put their trust in Jesus Christ to save them from hell.
They may have some quite good theological points, and of course I would agree that we are saved by Grace of the Lord, freely given.

Nevertheless, when Jesus Himself in Scripture gives this picture of the last judgment and seems to make our entry into Heaven dependent on what we've done on earth, I don't take it lightly.

JimG
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  #15  
Old Jun 6, '04, 10:37 am
Socrates4Jesus Socrates4Jesus is offline
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Default Re: How do i get to heaven

Thanks, Sirach, i'll check some of those out.


I've got to go, but maybe i should leave with a question & see, when i return, what others have to say. St. Paul writes:

"A worker's wage is credited not as a gift, but as a something due. But when one does not work, yet believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness." (Romans 4, verses 4-5, New American Bible)

When i read his words to the Catholics at Rome, he really seems to be saying that heaven is a gift that is freely given to us, NOT a reward for which we work to earn. So, when someone tells me that the good things i do will help me merit heaven, i have trouble understanding how St. Paul would agree.

Does anyone have any ideas?
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