"Why say Hail Marys?"

[PC Master]

Originally Posted by Apryl

As there are some 35,000 different Protestant groups, this is an unfair, inaccurate statement.

Aside from the point that there are not 35,000 Protestant groups, I do understand your point -- I can't speak for all Protestants. However, neither can Roman Catholics. The charge made was that, if it were up to Protestants, we would fail to live up to what scripture says -- that all generations will call Mary blessed.

I maintain that this isn't true. Even if Roman Catholicism in its current form did not exist, I would still recognize Mary as blessed.

My point is that there is a difference between calling someone blessed and praying to them all the time. In other words, Mary never said "they'll pray the Rosary every day".

As for the 'vain repetitions', I may not have an apologist to quote, but I do not believe that the recitation of the prayers of the Rosary constitute 'vain repetitions'. Besides, we are told in the scriptures to pray unceasingly. It's not the repetitions that are discouraged, but the vain ones.

First, note the bit that I emphasized above. What do you base this personal belief off of?

Second -- how do you define vanity? I looked it up in the dictionary, posted that information, and asked for a reasonable response (asking what the benefit or usefulness of it is), and am getting the runaround.

Originally Posted by cecilia97

Timing it would accomplish, but praying offers an added benefit...the recitation of the prayers occupies the body and actually allows for better mental concentration on the Mysteries. It's an ancient technique for meditation and contemplation.

Well, I guess I'm a pretty screwed up human being, because I find that speaking or even subvocalizing takes effort, and that effort could be better directed to thinking about Christ. Can you please explain how something which takes effort "actually allows for better mental concentration"?

I've already said that the prayers could be Our Fathers or any other prayer. Help yourself. Since I'm sure no one is trying to force you to pray Hail Marys, the question is not very relevant.

Could it be random babbling in some pre-defined pattern? If you can swap in the "Our Father" with no difference, then the specific words being said indeed have no benefit, and thus, are vain.

Where has it been proven that time spent praying Hail Marys detracts from Christ?

Let's try to simplify this a little bit.

To pray, it takes a certain mental capacity -- you have to think about what you're saying/praying.

To meditate, it takes a certain mental capacity as well.

To do other things, it takes a certain mental capacity.

Let's assume you're just meditating, and not doing or thinking about anything else at the moment (this is just a hypothetical, folks -- don't split hairs, please). You'd have a certain mental capacity which you could devote to meditating on Christ. Now, if you start subvocalizing or speaking at the same time, you must devote some of your mental capacity to that function, and thus you have less "available" for meditating.

Praise for the artwork honors the artist.

But do you speak to the artwork, or praise it repeatedly? No -- you go and talk to the artist.

Originally Posted by peary

When I speak with my mother, I know that she loves me. When I speak to Mary, it's the same, in my opinion. Catholics do not 'worship' Christ's mother, just as they don't 'worship' their mothers.

Please be more careful in how you post your replies. It's too annoying to pull your replies out of quotes to respond to them.

As for the bit that I quoted -- you're still dodging the question. I didn't ask if Mary loves you, or how you know that. I asked how you know that she loves you praying the Rosary. Please answer the question.

Continued...

[PC Master]

Originally Posted by Pixie Dust

You didn't answer my question. How is what you call "chant" which is actually mostly quoting Scripture while meditating on the life of Christ, worthless?

To not be vain/useless, it must have a purpose. If this is the case, it should be very easy for you to tell me what the purpose of this chanting is. Whether it's quoting scripture or praying or simply spouting gibberish doesn't really matter -- either it has purpose, or it's vain.

Waaaay back at the beginning of this thread, I said that saying a Hail Mary brings two things to mind - both of them are words that Mary spoke that are found in Scripture.

Not if you're meditating on something else. If speaking words can bring to mind something else, then you're not meditating fully, thereby demonstrating my point that this chanting detracts from Christ.

1. I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be done to me according to your word. Sounds like a good attitude to have and emulate, don't you agree?

Sure -- this has benefit -- but not as a chant or a prayer. It's a useful piece of knowledge, just as many other things in scripture are.

2. Do whatever He tells you. Originally spoken to the servants at the wedding in Cana, but again, a good piece of advice to follow, wouldn't you say?

Sure. My response above applies here as well.

Originally Posted by YADA

You obviously have never spent much time in meditation with prayer / scripture ...... perhaps it is not for you ....but others enjoy a richer Christian experience for the effort .....

It's interesting that you think you know me so well. I spend a lot of time meditating. That's how I know that speaking or doing other things distracts from it.

Who are you to specify the method as bing valid, invalid, beneficial or not .... I do read any where in the scriptures that you are the final arbitor of what constitutes appropriate and inappropriate Christian prayer ...can you provide your resume and a list of the Christian faith communities who look to you for guidance and authority on valid prayers?

It doesn't matter who I am, or am not. All that matters is whether what I'm saying is truthful. If it's not (which you seem to be claiming), it should be easy to demonstrate the flaw. Go for it.

Well, actually Christian faith and practice for 2000 years reflects a different reality .....

Now see, that relies on your interpretation of the limited info we have available to us.


Oh, another thought on the issue of spiritual versus physical. Mary was the physical mother of Christ. Whether or not heaven is a strictly-spiritual "place", Roman Catholics believe (and I tend to agree) that earthly marriages won't matter in heaven. Likewise, I hold that earthly parentage won't matter either.

Anywho, I'm getting rather tired of the hoops and semantics you guys run through. At least I learned a couple of things here, among them that many of you apparently have a very poor understanding of meditation.

[YADA]

It's interesting that you think you know me so well. I spend a lot of time meditating. That's how I know that speaking or doing other things distracts from it.

It doesn't matter who I am, or am not. All that matters is whether what I'm saying is truthful. If it's not (which you seem to be claiming), it should be easy to demonstrate the flaw. Go for it.

Now see, that relies on your interpretation of the limited info we have available to us.

Oh, another thought on the issue of spiritual versus physical. Mary was the physical mother of Christ. Whether or not heaven is a strictly-spiritual "place", Roman Catholics believe (and I tend to agree) that earthly marriages won't matter in heaven. Likewise, I hold that earthly parentage won't matter either.

Anywho, I'm getting rather tired of the hoops and semantics you guys run through. At least I learned a couple of things here, among them that many of you apparently have a very poor understanding of meditation.

You find prayers like the rosary unsuited for your personality, capabilities, etc.....Fine .... you do not need to use the Rosary .... others find praying the Rosary beneficial. Many people pray the Rosary and develop a deep love for Christ, a deep understanding of the Life, Ministry, Passion, Death and Resurrection of Jesus.......

Why can't you admit that prayer is personal and what you find uplifting is not what another would seek out? Like music, you may love to listen to Jazz while I enjoy Classical and another listens to Rock.....while I may enjoy the occasional Jazz or Rock piece, my personal favorite is Classical and then Country ....

Have you ever experienced Lectio Divina, the Liturgy of the Hours or another communal experience of prayer? The Rosary like Lectio Divina and the Liturgy of the Hours are all prayer forms that can be experienced individually as well as communally .... and even when prayed alone our prayer us united with all of the other Christians around the world who are joined in the same prayer. Now you may not feel the grace nor understand how that builds up the Body of Christ, the community of believers.

The command to pray unceasingly, to be a communion of saints to unite our prayers for each other and in thanksgiving to our creator is something we take seriously.......

[Church Militant]

Originally Posted by PC Master

To not be vain/useless, it must have a purpose. If this is the case, it should be very easy for you to tell me what the purpose of this chanting is. Whether it's quoting scripture or praying or simply spouting gibberish doesn't really matter -- either it has purpose, or it's vain.

(I am presuming that you speak of the Rosary...) Certainly it has a purpose. Sometimes it is prayed for intercession for prayer intentions, sometimes as praise to God for some answered prayer or special blessing, sometimes it is to focus my mind on some aspect of the life of Christ

Not if you're meditating on something else. If speaking words can bring to mind something else, then you're not meditating fully, thereby demonstrating my point that this chanting detracts from Christ

Doesn't sound to me that you know much about meditation or deeper prayer. I suppose there are people who "chant" their Rosary. I am not one of them. However, I cannot begin to count the times that the Holy Spirit has brought to mind a special need that He wishes me to intercede for, or a person that He wishes included in my prayers.

Detracting from meditation? My dear man, I pray most of my Rosary in Latin and it does nothing like detract from anything. In fact, in my case it helps me focus the more deeply upon the meaning of what I am saying.

Sure -- this has benefit -- but not as a chant or a prayer. It's a useful piece of knowledge, just as many other things in scripture are.

Sure. My response above applies here as well.

So... you are telling me that you never pray the scriptures? Not even the Psalms? Your loss I think.

It's interesting that you think you know me so well. I spend a lot of time meditating. That's how I know that speaking or doing other things distracts from it.

Perhaps we are better at it because of long practice. Certainly there is a place for silence before the Lord. Many of us do so before the Blessed Sacrament, but just because your particular custom or style of meditation is not like ours does not make ours wrong or unscriptural.

It doesn't matter who I am, or am not. All that matters is whether what I'm saying is truthful. If it's not (which you seem to be claiming), it should be easy to demonstrate the flaw. Go for it.

Done. See above.

Now see, that relies on your interpretation of the limited info we have available to us.

How is that any different than yours? I don't think I'd go there since I happen to think that the majority of n-C salvation messages are in fact another and deficient gospel. A topic for another thread I'm sure.

Oh, another thought on the issue of spiritual versus physical. Mary was the physical mother of Christ. Whether or not heaven is a strictly-spiritual "place", Roman Catholics believe (and I tend to agree) that earthly marriages won't matter in heaven. Likewise, I hold that earthly parentage won't matter either.

If that were true then why the 4th commandment to honor thy father and mother and the 6th commandment which says, "Thou shall not commit adultery."? Obviously these things will matter to some degree at judgement even though glorified bodies will not marry.

Anywho, I'm getting rather tired of the hoops and semantics you guys run through. At least I learned a couple of things here, among them that many of you apparently have a very poor understanding of meditation.

And I might say the same with regard to you sir.

Simple question...have you ever actually bothered to try to pray a Catholic chaplet of any sort? If not, perhaps you could let me send you a Rosary, (I have a couple of spares) and accept my direction to learn and pray the very simple Divine Mercy Chaplet as part of your meditation. It works very well for me. (You can Pm me an address and I will happily share this with you.)
Pax tecum,

[Ginger2]

Originally Posted by Church Militant

(I am presuming that you speak of the Rosary...) ........ If not, perhaps you could let me send you a Rosary, (I have a couple of spares) and accept my direction to learn and pray the very simple Divine Mercy Chaplet as part of your meditation. It works very well for me. (You can Pm me an address and I will happily share this with you.)
Pax tecum,

Church Militant,

Over the course of time, I feel I've come to know you quite well.

I believe your comment above is a loving hand reaching out to someone. I like that and hope PC understands the sentiment behind the offer.

I was raised Catholic, and taught the Rosary. We recited the Rosary every Sunday in church.

But I have always prayed directly to God. That was what came naturally to me. One day my older sister told me I should not pray directly to God, but to the saints. I tried. If felt very unnatural - so I stopped. I only pray to God.

Knowing what I know now....if I had not had the experience of Catholic direction, I would not try to learn the Rosary today.

If you are able to focus solely on God and all He has done, is doing and will do, then I think saying the Rosary if fine. Just the same as I focus only on God when I say the Lord's Prayer.

Saying the Rosary to Catholics is a better way. But each of us is individual and each of us relates to God individually. If some draw closer to God through the Psalms and some through freestyle prayer and some through the Rosary, the important thing is that we are focused on God and being drawn nearer to Him.

I am curious about your experience learning the Rosary. Would you care to share it with me?

[queenofpeace]

quote: [b]PC Master[/B ]from post #76
Mary never said "they"ll pray the Rosary everyday.


The Rosary is the fullfilment of Luke 1:48.

[Ginger2]

It is very difficult to explain why Protestants don't follow the Marian rituals without causing Catholics to jump to wrong conclusions.

If search the NT for the name "Jesus" you will omit many references to Jesus as "he", "his" etc., but you still will find probably ten times as many references to Jesus then to Mary.

Keep in mind, doing a search for the name "Mary" will bring up references to at least two other Marys.

Now, while Catholics seem to be saying that focusing on Mary IS focusing on God, Protestants focusing directly on God.

Also, the Bible says:

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Jhn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Jhn 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

I do not discourage Catholics from praying to Mary, but Catholics should not think that their prayers are better because Mary is asking for them.


Jhn 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

We have Jesus asking for us.

Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them].

[PC Master]

Originally Posted by YADA

You find prayers like the rosary unsuited for your personality, capabilities, etc.....Fine .... you do not need to use the Rosary .... others find praying the Rosary beneficial. Many people pray the Rosary and develop a deep love for Christ, a deep understanding of the Life, Ministry, Passion, Death and Resurrection of Jesus.......

Why can't you admit that prayer is personal and what you find uplifting is not what another would seek out?

I can certainly accept that. However, that wasn't the original question here, nor what I seek to answer. To me, the Rosary (particularly the "Hail Mary", repeated over and over as "background music" while you're supposed to be meditating) can be classed as vain (ineffectual). That's the question I want answered -- does praying the Hail Mary have any actual effect, and if so, can you please explain, logically and in detail, how it does (in comparison to anything else you could throw in its place)? I'd also be interested to see how you might compare this to a deep meditation which doesn't involve chanting of some kind, though I would guess many of you have minimal experience with that.

The command to pray unceasingly, to be a communion of saints to unite our prayers for each other and in thanksgiving to our creator is something we take seriously.......

But why does praying to Mary make a difference as compared to praying to God directly? The only thing I can come up with is that God can answer my request himself -- Mary cannot (assuming she could even hear my prayer).

Originally Posted by Church Militant

(I am presuming that you speak of the Rosary...) Certainly it has a purpose. Sometimes it is prayed for intercession for prayer intentions, sometimes as praise to God for some answered prayer or special blessing, sometimes it is to focus my mind on some aspect of the life of Christ

My apologies -- I misstated myself. I don't mean purpose as "intent for doing something". I was referring, rather, to the definition of vanity, which says that a vain thing is ineffectual -- I improperly used "purpose".

So, if I may re-ask -- what is the effect that praying the Hail Mary over and over has, as compared to praying it once, or praying another prayer, or meditating without such ritualized prayers? Please explain in detail so I can hopefully understand.

Doesn't sound to me that you know much about meditation or deeper prayer. I suppose there are people who "chant" their Rosary. I am not one of them. However, I cannot begin to count the times that the Holy Spirit has brought to mind a special need that He wishes me to intercede for, or a person that He wishes included in my prayers.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the standard point of the decades of Hail Marys prayed in the Rosary is to serve as "background music" while you meditate on the mysteries, right? If this be so, then how can you be thinking about interceding for someone else without drawing your attention and focus away from that meditation?

I know, you all say it doesn't detract, but I don't understand how it doesn't. I gave an example above to try to explain how it must detract. Please try to relate to that, so that I can better understand what you're saying. "I'm telling you it doesn't detract" doesn't really help me much.

Continued...

[PC Master]

So... you are telling me that you never pray the scriptures? Not even the Psalms? Your loss I think.

Rather, I meditate on scripture, and on God's will, and pray in accordance with what he reveals to me through that. No, I don't pray the scriptures verbatim -- what purpose would that serve? There are many things to be gained from even an "average" scripture passage, and focusing on them all at once would make the mind spin. But God has an uncanny way of speaking to me through scripture, showing me the flaws in my life, and how I should be living. To simply pray through scripture, verbatim, leaves you open to falling into a ritual without true significance.

Perhaps we are better at it because of long practice.

Okay, so perhaps praying the Rosary while you meditate isn't as distracting for you as you seem to think I'm implying. That doesn't mean it's not distracting at all. Or perhaps you've simply never meditated at "full capacity", so to speak, and thus simply don't understand my point.

When the all of your soul is engrossed in meditation, you really can't speak.

How is that any different than yours?

I never said it was. What I am saying is that I need more than a "I believe" to convince me of the righteousness of something.

If that were true then why the 4th commandment to honor thy father and mother and the 6th commandment which says, "Thou shall not commit adultery."? Obviously these things will matter to some degree at judgment even though glorified bodies will not marry.

In pertinence to earthly actions and relationships, yes. But you should really study the commandments closer, and understand what "honor" means in that context.

Simple question...have you ever actually bothered to try to pray a Catholic chaplet of any sort? If not, perhaps you could let me send you a Rosary, (I have a couple of spares) and accept my direction to learn and pray the very simple Divine Mercy Chaplet as part of your meditation. It works very well for me. (You can Pm me an address and I will happily share this with you.)

While I am sure the offer is sincere, I cannot accept it. The reason isn't that I don't know how to do it -- the reason is that I don't understand what benefit there is over other types of meditation. What difference does praying the same words over and over actually make?

Originally Posted by Ginger2

If you are able to focus solely on God and all He has done, is doing and will do, then I think saying the Rosary if fine. Just the same as I focus only on God when I say the Lord's Prayer.

I agree -- I simply don't understand how one can focus totally and completely on God while at the same time verbalizing thoughts that pertain to Mary.

...the important thing is that we are focused on God and being drawn nearer to Him.

Absolutely!

Originally Posted by queenofpeace

quote: [b]PC Master[/B ]from post #76
Mary never said "they"ll pray the Rosary everyday.


The Rosary is the fullfilment of Luke 1:48.

No -- me saying "Mary was certainly blessed" is a fulfillment of Luke 1:48. Praying the Rosary goes far beyond that. It repeats the statement (along with other things), over and over again. What's the benefit of doing this?

Continued...

[PC Master]

How is praying the same thing to Mary, over and over, any different from the actions of the prophets of Baal...

1 Kings 18:22-38 Amplified
22 Then Elijah said to the people, I, I only, remain a prophet of the Lord, but Baal's prophets are 450 men.
23 Let two bulls be given us; let them choose one bull for themselves and cut it in pieces and lay it on the wood but put no fire to it. I will dress the other bull, lay it on the wood, and put no fire to it.
24 Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord; and the One Who answers by fire, let Him be God. And all the people answered, It is well spoken.
25 Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, Choose one bull for yourselves and dress it first, for you are many; and call on the name of your god, but put no fire under it.
26 So they took the bull given them, dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning until noon, saying, O Baal, hear and answer us! But there was no voice; no one answered. And they leaped upon or limped about the altar they had made.
27 At noon Elijah mocked them, saying, Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is musing, or he has gone aside, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.
28 And they cried aloud and cut themselves after their custom with knives and lances until the blood gushed out upon them.
29 Midday passed, and they played the part of prophets until the time for offering the evening sacrifice, but there was no voice, no answer, no one who paid attention.
30 Then Elijah said to all the people, Come near to me. And all the people came near him. And he repaired the [old] altar of the Lord that had been broken down [by Jezebel].(A)
31 Then Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of the Lord came, saying, Israel shall be your name.(B)
32 And with the stones Elijah built an altar in the name [and self-revelation] of the Lord. He made a trench about the altar as great as would contain two measures of seed.
33 He put the wood in order and cut the bull in pieces and laid it on the wood and said, Fill four jars with water and pour it on the burnt offering and the wood.
34 And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time.
35 The water ran round about the altar, and he filled the trench also with water.
36 At the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet came near and said, O Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that You are God in Israel and that I am Your servant and that I have done all these things at Your word.
37 Hear me, O Lord, hear me, that this people may know that You, the Lord, are God, and have turned their hearts back [to You].
38 Then the fire of the Lord fell and consumed the burnt sacrifice and the wood and the stones and the dust, and also licked up the water that was in the trench.

In the New Testament, Jesus explains that our God knows what we need before we say a word. Why repeat it over and over? What does it accomplish?

And if our God hears our prayers and knows our hearts immediately, why should we go to Mary, who apparently doesn't (either she doesn't hear us right away, and thus needs us to repeat it, or the repetitions of prayer are not actually being prayed, and thus are vanity)? What benefit does it add? Surely, any religious practice or ritual must have some tangible benefit over something simpler, so guys, explain it to me in detail.

[Mannyfit75]

I posted a related topic concerning praying the Rosary as well as other devotional prayer..

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=203670 This might turn out to be an interesting topic.

[rtconstant]

[quote=PC Master;3050633]How is praying the same thing to Mary, over and over, any different from the actions of the prophets of Baal...QUOTE]

To be blunt that is loaded and silly question. How is a sudden and personal prayer to God any different than when pagans pray to their gods for strength? How is meditatitng on Scripture any different than a Muslim reading the Koran or a Tibetan reading one of their sacred texts?

The difference is in where its directed and what the intent behind it is. This really should be self-explanatory.

In the New Testament, Jesus explains that our God knows what we need before we say a word. Why repeat it over and over? What does it accomplish?

Um, well why pray at all? I mean as long were getting out context why not make that leap?

And if our God hears our prayers and knows our hearts immediately, why should we go to Mary, who apparently doesn't (either she doesn't hear us right away, and thus needs us to repeat it, or the repetitions of prayer are not actually being prayed, and thus are vanity)? What benefit does it add? Surely, any religious practice or ritual must have some tangible benefit over something simpler, so guys, explain it to me in detail.

This simply shows that you do not understand the purpose of meditation that's fine. If you don't get meditation then don't do it. For you it would probably be a distraction. To be honest meditation actually takes practice if its not your thing don't worry about it. Just don't condemn or put your own issues on others who are able and desire to do it.

You're confusing normal prayer and meditation. While meditation does involve prayer they're not the synonyms. Prayer can be structured or off the cuff. It can be made during a set aside time for prayer or it can be done in your car on your way to work. Prayer by itself is simply a way of asking God to help you move through your day to day life.

Meditation is for spiritual growth. It is a time that you consider yourself and God more deeply. During this time you do pray and give thanks but that is part of a larger communion with God. During this time when you're calm and simply letting God speak to you one often finds that they become aware of things or people they need to pray for. Meditation allows one to connect to God in a way that He can speak to you not just you giving Him a run down of what you need for the day.

Christian Meditation involves focusing and in the case of the Rosary it involves focusing on the nature and work of Christ. As one considers and delves into the wonders of Our Lord one gains insights into His life and as such one gains a better understanding of God's grace which then causes one to become closer to God.

[Ginger2]

Originally Posted by rtconstant

......... How is a sudden and personal prayer to God any different than when pagans pray to their gods for strength? How is meditatitng on Scripture any different than a Muslim reading the Koran or a Tibetan reading one of their sacred texts?.

You must be joking.

What is obvious is that pagans pray to a false or non-existent god.

Meditating on Scripture is profitable because God can and does speak to us thru the Holy Scriptures.

God can also speak us thru the Koran so those who are saved will not be deceived by corrupt literature - at least not forever.

That, my friend, is the difference.

[Ginger2]

Originally Posted by rtconstant

How is a sudden and personal prayer to God any different than when pagans pray to their gods for strength? How is meditatitng on Scripture any different than a Muslim reading the Koran or a Tibetan reading one of their sacred texts?.

What is your implication here?

Do you acknowledge that God answers prayers directed to Him?

Or are you implying it is necessary for a saint in heaven to pray for God to hear/answer your prayers?

I was told by a Catholic once that one can be led astray by praying directly to God and that is why it is better to pray to Mary and ask her to pray to God.

[Lampo]

Originally Posted by Ginger2

I was told by a Catholic once that one can be led astray by praying directly to God and that is why it is better to pray to Mary and ask her to pray to God.

You were also told once by a Catholic who was running for President of the United States to vote for him even though he supported abortion. The Catholic is wrong in both instances.