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  #1  
Old Dec 7, '07, 9:51 pm
rien rien is offline
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Default Where does Scripture say revelation ended with death of last Apostle?

It doesn't from what I know. A friend of mine pointed that out. I sort of knew it but she also said church councils have also not decalred that revealtion is closed as a dogma.

This is the argument of the LDS which is hard to definitely rebut. However, my friend is a former Catholic pushing gay marriage and such issues. Her arguments are from many of the same sources as the LDS and somewhat grounded. Is she right? Is revelation/the canon still open?
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  #2  
Old Dec 8, '07, 8:27 am
Verbum Verbum is offline
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Default Re: Where does Scripture say revelation ended with death of last Apostle?

Hi Rien,

The New Covenant, sealed by the blood of Christ is eternal. He died, resurrected, ascended into heaven and will come back to judge the living and the dead. The correct attitude of a Christilan is to accept this revelation and live it while expecting the end times. If there were to be a new revelation, it would be in addition to and outside the eternal covenant... outside of Christ.

Here's how Dei Verbum, the scripture document from the Council, states it:

Quote:
4. Then, after speaking in many and varied ways through the prophets, "now at last in these days God has spoken to us in His Son" (Heb. 1:1-2). For He sent His Son, the eternal Word, who enlightens all men, so that He might dwell among men and tell them of the innermost being of God (see John 1:1-18). Jesus Christ, therefore, the Word made flesh, was sent as "a man to men." (3) He "speaks the words of God" (John 3;34), and completes the work of salvation which His Father gave Him to do (see John 5:36; John 17:4). To see Jesus is to see His Father (John 14:9). For this reason Jesus perfected revelation by fulfilling it through his whole work of making Himself present and manifesting Himself: through His words and deeds, His signs and wonders, but especially through His death and glorious resurrection from the dead and final sending of the Spirit of truth. Moreover He confirmed with divine testimony what revelation proclaimed, that God is with us to free us from the darkness of sin and death, and to raise us up to life eternal.
The Christian dispensation, therefore, as the new and definitive covenant, will never pass away and we now await no further new public revelation before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ (see 1 Tim. 6:14 and Tit. 2:13)
.

For complete document see

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_c...verbum_en.html

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  #3  
Old Dec 8, '07, 2:34 pm
DLC DLC is offline
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Default Re: Where does Scripture say revelation ended with death of last Apostle?

For an answer read theses verses. Revelation 22:18-19; Proverbs 30:5-6; Deut 4:2; Isa 8:20.
Question, will modern revelation ever disagree with the Bible?
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  #4  
Old Dec 8, '07, 4:38 pm
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Default Re: Where does Scripture say revelation ended with death of last Apostle?

The Church does approve of private revelation, though, doesn't She? I know She tends to be rather doubtful, and that's the right approach, in my opinion.
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Old Dec 8, '07, 10:59 pm
Todd Easton Todd Easton is offline
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Default Re: Where does Scripture say revelation ended with death of last Apostle?

The following verses seem to indicate that the Christian faith was delivered complete, once and for all, to the saints of the first-century Church, that Christians are to hold to those ancient apostolic traditions, taught by word of mouth or by letter, and that Christians are to reject any new teachings that are contrary to those ancient apostolic traditions.
3Beloved, being very eager to write to you of our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jude 1:3)
15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. (2 Thessalonians 2:15)


6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel-- 7not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:6-9)



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  #6  
Old Dec 10, '07, 4:44 am
Daniel Marsh Daniel Marsh is offline
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Default Re: Where does Scripture say revelation ended with death of last Apostle?

Hebrews 1

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
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  #7  
Old Dec 10, '07, 4:53 am
Daniel Marsh Daniel Marsh is offline
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Default Re: Where does Scripture say revelation ended with death of last Apostle?

Quote:
(2) Christianity is meant to be a perfect religion

A priori, we should expect that a religious system which was revealed and instituted, not by a prophet or even an angel, but by the personal action of God Himself, and was designed, moreover, to supplant an imperfect and provisional form of religion, would lack nothing of possible perfection in end or means. Christ's own teaching satisfied this expectation, and precludes the notion entertained by some early heretics, and still alive in the minds of men, of a fuller and more perfect revelation to come.


First of all, He, its Founder, is God, and therefore had all the knowledge and all the power requisite to establish a perfect religion.

Secondly, He promised His Apostles the abiding presence of the Spirit of Truth, who should teach them all truth.

Thirdly, He promised that the body enshrining this deposit should never be vitiated by error "The gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18; cf. Ephesians 5:27).

Fourthly, the same truth is insinuated by St. Paul's words: "God, who at sundry times . . .last of all . . .hath spoken to us by His Son" (Hebrews 1:1), and by the expression, the fulness of time, used in Galatians 4:4, to indicate the epoch of the Incarnation.

Fifthly, by the character of the Christian revelation itself and the Christian ethical ideal which is the imitation of Christ, the Perfect Being. No possible development of mankind can be thought of which should not find all that it needs in Christ.


We are compelled, therefore, to believe that the Christian revelation closed with the death of the last of those originally commissioned to set it forth.
We are thus brought counter to a modern view regarding revelation which has lately been condemned as heretical by Pius X (Encyclical, "Pascendi Gregis", Sept., 1907). It is to the effect that revelation is nothing external, but a clearer and closer apprehension of things Divine by the Christian consciousness, which in each particular age is the expression of the experience of the best men of that age. Consequently, revelation grows, like a material organism, by waste and renewed supply, and therefore what is truth for one age maybe quite different from what is truth for another. The error which has these developments is ultimately philosophical, being based on the false assumption that the finite mind can know only the phenomenal and can have no certainty of what is beyond experience. Were that so, any external revelation would be impossible, for its guarantees miracle and prophecy could not be grasped by human intelligence. These errors were long ago exposed and condemned by the Vatican Council. The most casual glance at the history of Christianity shows that there has been development of doctrine; the Creed grew only gradually; but that development is merely logical, produced by analysis of the content of the original deposit. (See DEVELOPMENT OF DOCTRINE.)
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm
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  #8  
Old Dec 10, '07, 5:33 am
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Default Re: Where does Scripture say revelation ended with death of last Apostle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Marsh View Post
Hebrews 1

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
Am I missing something in this passage? This says there is no more Revelation?

Doesn't the Church approve of some private Revelation, as long as it's not contrary to Church teaching? Weren't there private revelations given at Fatima and Gualaoupe, for example?
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  #9  
Old Dec 10, '07, 5:35 am
MH84 MH84 is offline
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Default Re: Where does Scripture say revelation ended with death of last Apostle?

Who even came up with the terms "private revelation" and "public revelation"? I hate to say it, but its not biblical
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Old Dec 10, '07, 6:50 am
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Default Re: Where does Scripture say revelation ended with death of last Apostle?

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Who even came up with the terms "private revelation" and "public revelation"? I hate to say it, but its not biblical
So Mary didn't speak to the children of Fatima?

That's private revelation. At least I thought it was until this thread.
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Old Dec 10, '07, 6:55 am
MH84 MH84 is offline
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Default Re: Where does Scripture say revelation ended with death of last Apostle?

But most of the world has now heard of Fatima, how is that "private"? Isnt it now "public"? Isnt revelation, revelation. If God reveals it, isnt it now to the whole world?
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  #12  
Old Dec 10, '07, 6:57 am
MH84 MH84 is offline
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Default Re: Where does Scripture say revelation ended with death of last Apostle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Marsh View Post
Hebrews 1

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
These verses do not prove that "revelation ended with death of last Apostle".
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Old Dec 10, '07, 7:00 am
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NotWorthy NotWorthy is offline
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Default Re: Where does Scripture say revelation ended with death of last Apostle?

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Originally Posted by MH84 View Post
But most of the world has now heard of Fatima, how is that "private"? Isnt it now "public"? Isnt revelation, revelation. If God reveals it, isnt it now to the whole world?
Because the revelation was done in private. Then the private individuals made it public.

Contrast this with, say, the Pentecost, where the Apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit while spreading the word!!! Jesus would be a good example of public Revelation, wouldn't he?
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  #14  
Old Dec 10, '07, 7:14 am
MH84 MH84 is offline
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Default Re: Where does Scripture say revelation ended with death of last Apostle?

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Originally Posted by NotWorthy View Post
Because the revelation was done in private. Then the private individuals made it public.

Contrast this with, say, the Pentecost, where the Apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit while spreading the word!!! Jesus would be a good example of public Revelation, wouldn't he?
I wouldve thought that the evangelising of the apostles was more of a public reveleation than the Gospel Jesus was spreading, even though the Apostles continued the message of Jesus anyway. Jesus came to save the Jews first did He not? This verse springs to mind:

Matthew 15:
21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

www.biblegateway.com

But anyway I think you're more right here than me. So what would happen if the children of Fatima were commissioned to spread the message? Doesnt that message become public revelation
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Old Dec 10, '07, 7:15 am
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Default Re: Where does Scripture say revelation ended with death of last Apostle?

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But anyway I think you're more right here than me. So what would happen if the children of Fatima were commissioned to spread the message? Doesnt that message become public revelation
I don't know.
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